Combining Wizard and Cleric Spells

[ScardPtori]

I am in the processes of reworking my homebrew campaign world and I had an interesting idea that I wanted to get some feedback on.

In my world, there are those who believe that divine magic is a power granted by the gods, and there are some who believe that divine magic is just another form of magic, not unlike arcane magic. (Both require meditation, use verbal and somatic components to correctly channel the energy. The primary difference is that in one you have to learn the magic from another person and in the other you “just know it” similar to how a spontaneous caster just knows how to cast their spells.) So this has led me to wonder why not just combine the wizard and clerical spells.

My thoughts are to perhaps do away with the cleric class, and make both wizard and cleric spells accessible to wizards. This would not change the druid’s spell list or how they gain spells and it would not change the spells available to a sorcerer. Primarily, I would be looking to give the wizard the ability to cast heals and buffs in addition to their normal abilities. I know that turning undead would not be available as a class feature, but I would probably make it available as a feat. (I might even consider leaving clerics in as an option, but this would allow healing to be available in a non-deity given way.)

To counter the additional spell options given to wizards, I might consider doing away with the familiar and/or the bonus feats so that the wizard would not be viewed as over powered.

So does anyone know if anyone has tried this before? And would this affect balance and game play? (I’m not looking to allow a gestalt character in a group of normal PCs.)

 

[Nifft]

Cleric spells are great for several things:

1/ Condition removal (this isn't a power-up; you're giving Wizards access to a new role, not a new attack);

2/ Group-buff (this is a power-up for the whole party, if the Wizard uses these very unsexy and unexciting spells); and

3/ Self-buff (no single-classed Wizard in his right mind is going to cast divine power and righteous might and charge into melee).

Clerics also have inexplicable early access to several spells (like plane shift and animate dead); giving those to Wizards won't hurt things much, and should go far in making them feel like they really are the primary spellcasters.

Giving a Necromancer access to the various inflict spells will make him much happier. Now he can actually repair his undead minions!

- - -

I suggest that you force ALL Wizards to be specialists. This reduces their spell lists significantly, and means you could still have two (or more) Wizards in a party, each contributing very differently.

I suggest Priest as a prestige class. It would have reduced casting, d8 HD, good Fort & Will saves, and grant you Turn or Rebuke Undead and eventually the ability to cast Cleric spells while in armor. Or your spells would gain a Focus component (holy symbol) when you're in armor.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

PS: [pimp] http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=163829 [/pimp]

 

[Croesus]

My group is currently using some homebrew rules that, among other things, allow only one spellcasting class that can learn spells from the cleric, druid, and wizard/sorcerer lists. The character can take a particular spell at the lowest level its available (cure light wounds is 1st level cleric, 2nd level druid, so the caster can get it as a 1st level spell). The class casts as a sorcerer, so we upped the spells known quite a bit (as the caster has to cover more bases).

We also use a token system that balances spells by encounter, not day, and it works fairly well. Casters have considerable flexibility, but are always in danger of running out of tokens, so the player has to be careful. In fact, the BBEG in the last session died because he was a single token short of being able to cast a cure moderate.

I agree that the standard party is likely to become: fighter, rogue, spellcaster, spellcaster. However, a party with only a single caster also works well (at least it does with our rules). Also, I don't think you'll have a problem with a spellcaster becoming too tough due to access to some pretty good clerical spells - so long as they don't have all the other benefits of the cleric class (armor, hit points, bab, weapon selection), you won't see them casting divine power and wading into combat (at least, not voluntarily...)

 

[GreatLemur]

I'm really digging this idea, and I've had thoughts in a similar vein, lately (hell, I'd give Wizards access to every spell list). I'm just glad to hear somebody like Nifft confirm that it wouldn't be a game balance cataclysm. I never thought divine magic of any kind was a very natural fit for any fantasy setting outside of "standard D&D", and I don't see any reason why arcane magic shouldn't be able to heal wounds and raise the dead.

We also use a token system that balances spells by encounter, not day, and it works fairly well. Casters have considerable flexibility, but are always in danger of running out of tokens, so the player has to be careful. In fact, the BBEG in the last session died because he was a single token short of being able to cast a cure moderate.

This might be getting off topic, here, but I'd be interested to hear about this token system.

 

[Nifft]

There's a few things to watch out for -- you should prohibit miracle, for example -- but in general, the Cleric's strength comes from his ability to pick any spell on his list for the day, and then cast his spells in full plate and a heavy shield. His decent BAB and moderate HD don't hurt either. Then there are Domain powers...

It's the whole package that makes him strong, not just his spell list. If you stick to the Wizard's casting mechanics (expensive to learn new spells, no armor, poor HD), there's not much danger in adding most Cleric spells.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Gerion of Mercadia]

I never thought divine magic of any kind was a very natural fit for any fantasy setting outside of "standard D&D", and I don't see any reason why arcane magic shouldn't be able to heal wounds and raise the dead.

The die hards will want your head for saying that. Quite frankly, I see it as a fundamental design weakness - trying to defend wizards "lack of access" to healing magic strictly because of a game balance issue.

 

[CleverNickName]

I once played in a campaign with three different types of wizard.

There were "black wizards," who drew their spells from the arcane spell list (like normal). But there were "white wizards" who drew their spells from the cleric spell list, and there were "green wizards" who drew their spells from the druid spell list.

Each was treated like a separate class...if you wanted to cast both druid and wizard spells, you would have to be a multiclassed green wizard/black wizard. (Forest elves had a favored class of green wizard, drow had a favored class of black wizard, and high elves had a favored class of white wizard.)

All other aspects of the wizard class (school specialization, bonus feats, and familiar) were unchanged; the only difference was the list of spells. These spells were still cast as arcane spells, still required spellbooks and preparation, and they were still based on Intelligence, no matter what spell list you were using.

It was fairly simple, it added a lot of color and flavor to the game, and it was a lot of fun. I don't know if it is what you were looking for, but I thought I'd offer it anyway.

 

[GreatLemur]

The die hards will want your head for saying that.

Seriously? I always figured the whole "magic adventuring priest" figure was largely a D&Dism (which, like many D&Disms, has been propagated by later games and other media). Previously, I think characters who went around performing miracles were generally a really big deal--avatars and prophets and such--as opposed to being the routine phenomenon they're generally assumed to be in D&D settings.

 

[Croesus]

This might be getting off topic, here, but I'd be interested to hear about this token system.

I hadn't planned to post the rules for this until I finished a unified system, where all classes use tokens for feats and abilities. But it's going pretty slow, so I've posted the spellcasting rules in another thread.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3422809#post3422809