Comedy of Errors and a bit of a rant

[Halivar]

A new DM for a group with a power-gamer calls for level 1 adventures. There isn't a lot of crazy going on, and generally it's harder to munchkin at level 1. It can be done, but it is harder. This DM wanted to really jump in and start telling these epic adventures, but I can tell you from experience that it ain't that easy. It gets easier if your DM'ing progresses along with the PC levels.

 

[Greenfield]

Most of the power gamers/munchkins I've met and played with would be happy to scale back Just so long as they're better than anything else on the field (including anything the DM puts out there), that's usually enough.

Note that I said "most", not "all". I'm sure there are munchkins out there who simply want to explore the system, to see how far it can take them, and that it isn't a competition to show everyone who's the "better man".

Admitted, I've never met this theoretical person, but it's a big world. Statistically, out of the six billion or so people in the world, such an individual might exist.

Okay, all seriousness aside, this player doesn't seem to understand the concept of "scale back". Like I said, he gloats when he pulls out some odd trick that says he's immune to X. One of the reasons he's loved as much as he is.

If, however, this particular PC does happen to croak, we will probably be a lot stricter in our enforcement of allowable sources. That might cramp his style a bit.

The DM was making a basic mistake though, in dealing with this one. You can't prove to a munchkin that munchkining is wrong by out-powering him All you'll do is convince hem that his munchkin PC needed to be even more munchkined, to prevent him being out-powered again. It's the arms-race mentality itself that is the problem.

 

[willvr]

I draw a big line between power gamers and munchkin. A power gamer can often be quite useful for a party to have; especially with big level differences. THey're often more than willing to share their tricks with the rest of the party; because they're about overpowering the enemies. A munchkin is yeah; pretty much "I'm the best, admit it!" A powergamer is usually more into following even the spirit of the rules in my experience.

But yeah; overpowering a munchkin doesn't help. Either he figures the GM's got it in for him; or that he's being encouraged to break the system more than he has.

 

[Greenfield]

As a DM, my problem with either one is party balance.

If one PC is head and shoulders better than the others, then I have to either allow them to walk through every conflict without ever being in real danger, running roughshod over my monsters, or...

I have to be prepared to overpower the rest of the party, regularly, in order to challenge the power gamer's character, or...

I have to constantly come up with reasons why the monsters get selectively stupid and clumsey when facing the bulk of the party, or...

I have to find ways to justify why, session after session, the mega-cannon is always aimed at that PC.

It also forces me, as a DM, to keep the spotlight on that character, all the time.

If everyone is power gaming to the same degree, these aren't issues, but not everyone wants "help" being a power gamer. If I devote all my skills and feats to increase my character's power, it means that I have that much less I can apply to RP skills and abilities.

I've player Superhero games many times. Those games tend to attract power gamers by their very nature. I got tired of seeing Captain Fantastic who can shake the planet with his little finger, but couldn't hold a job delivering Pizza. He spent all his points/quirke/levels/whatever on being the "super" part of superhuman, leaving nothing for the "human" part.

Perfectly refined adventure/combat machines bore me. Yeah, I know, others will disagree. Some will say that they can RP a character through any situation, even if their character doesn't have the skills to actually manage it. That is a topic for another rant.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

It sounds like you might want to stop running part of this campaign, start a new one (rotating with the current one), and control power-gaming in your campaign.

I've player Superhero games many times. Those games tend to attract power gamers by their very nature. I got tired of seeing Captain Fantastic who can shake the planet with his little finger, but couldn't hold a job delivering Pizza. He spent all his points/quirke/levels/whatever on being the "super" part of superhuman, leaving nothing for the "human" part.

Perfectly refined adventure/combat machines bore me. Yeah, I know, others will disagree. Some will say that they can RP a character through any situation, even if their character doesn't have the skills to actually manage it. That is a topic for another rant.

That's why I like goalposts and "silos".

If you're familiar with Mutants & Masterminds 2e, there are clear goalposts. (You can break the system, but it's obvious when you're doing it.) For instance, a PL 10 hero should have dodge and protection of about 10, maybe a bit more in one area to compensate for a bit less in the other. The swing was 2 for 2e, and unlimited for 3e but a note about what a DM should be concerned about.

By contrast, Strands of Fate's goalpoints aren't at all clear, and it's easy to build either a horribly weak or unkillable character, and have both in the same party. (A few things, like max attack rating, are clear.)

Neither use silos, both having you pay points for things like basic skills and being able to kick the stuffing out of things. Both actually have some very weak siloing. (In M&M, you have to pay points for defenses, but everyone just maxes those. In Strands of Fate, you buy powers separately from skills, but need to use the Power Affinity and Fight/Endurance/Dodge/etc skills to fight, leaving few points left for skill not relevant to "not dying". My Strands of Fate PC was a robot. The only thing he needed was a supply of electricity, provided by the headquarters, and could sneak into buildings and steal their power. And being a cloud of alien nanites that noone on earth knew how to fix, he could regenerate!)

 

[jasper]

Correct me if I wrong.
1. Group rotates DMs but keep the same pcs at their current level.
2. Power gamer pc build is way above rest of pc power level.
3. Inexperience Dm.
As group talk with power gamer to either tone down his pc. Or off board remove his pc and restrict his power level.
Don't do a do over, do a did not happen and make adjustments to pc hitpts etc as necessary.

 

[Greenfield]

The DM isn't exactly inexperienced. He's been playing and DMing for decades. He just hasn't had to deal with a lot of the material this player is bringing in.

As I mentioned, he dove headfirst into a number of source books the group had not approved for use. Our rule was, "Material from other sources may be approved on a case by case basis." We ended up having to case-by-case most of his character, and several items that were on the sheet somehow didn't get brought up for review. We were uncomfortable with some of what he had, but approved it grudgingly. Our mistake.

If/when this character dies he'll try to use this character's abuse to claim precedent was set. We probably won't be as understanding next time around.

It's sad to have to come down that hard on someone, and he'll probably get less creative license than he deserves, simply because we don't trust him not to abuse. But it's probably going to happen, and soon. The DMs don't have to plot the PCs death, we just have to be aware of what his vulnerabilities are and include scenes that actually challenge the character. We've seen how he absolutely crumbles when his tricks don't work.

 

[willvr]

Ultimately, your game, and if however you do it works, that's good.

I personally would speak to the player; because as GM it's rather easy to kill a PC if you wish to. It's sometimes less easy to not kill everyone else as well.

 

[jasper]

The DM isn't exactly inexperienced. ... He just hasn't had to deal with a lot of the material this player is bringing in.

..case-by-case most of his character, and several items that were on the sheet somehow didn't get brought up for review. We were uncomfortable with some of what he had, but approved it grudgingly. ....

Oh he is a "Randy". Do not wait. As a group, tell the player he is out of line with his builds and sources, compared to the group. Do this before the group plays in this adventure

Randy, a player who brings in non-core, secondary, third party material, etc which unbalances the group's normal game play. Frequently forgets to mention major game changer items.

This story of name and 1 of reasons why I have core rules only policy as dm.

Started a new campaign first to third level pcs. Randy asked to bring a paladin from the Complete Paladin Playbook. Told me there was nothing major to worry about out except the free plate mail. I reviewed the build over a busy work week. Asked again if any major I needed to know. He said no. Later in night he pulls a +5 holy avenger on the first monster the group meets which requires + weapons to hit. The group let out a collected “WTF”. I down graded it to a +1 holy avenger. And we played on with Randy griping since I approved and should not downgrade his pc just because I did not read all his source material.

This was Randy’s first strike. Later on he would get banish from my table if I was dming.

 

[willvr]

I think that's a bit harsh.

There is a large difference between 'trying to find loopholes' and 'whines when the GM downgrades something'. They're both problematic; but the first, depending on GM, can be worked with. I've done it. The second type yes, needs to be banished, or taught some much valuable lessons about "Rule 0."

I don't believe we know enough to determine what we're dealing with here, and can probably only be determined by the players at the game.