Comeliness and Charisma

[The Baron]

comeliness vs. charisma

Comeliness is already under the umbrella of charisma (PHB p 9):

Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.

perhaps more important is the second sentence:

This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.

So, the following statement doesn't accurately represent Charisma:

Well, this is true, but people do not seem to have much problem with charisma and I can assure you that 'personal magnetism' and what type of personality is liked also vary accross cultures and would vary enormously accross species. Neither is universal, so why is the idea of comeliness so much less popular than that of charisma?

Charisma has nothing to do with the perception of others in social setting. It is universal and already covers personal beauty.

As a side note, to add another stat that would be marginally useful (I can see a "seduction check," perhaps) seems a waste of time... unless you're running some sort of kinky game, in which case I recommend real life people.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Gez]

I prefer to let people chose whether their characters are beautiful or ugly, or anywhere in between.

However, I've thought about a simple mechanism to estimate beauty, based on other ability scores.

Start at 10, then add the bonuses of Dex, Con, and Cha.
Dexterity for gracefulness, Constitution for healthiness, and Charisma for, well, Charisma.

Then you may factor in racial bonus/malus (-2 for half-orcs and dwarves, +2 for elves and half-elves, for example). For dwarves and elves, it's a bit needed because of their Constitution bonus/penalty, which goes against the stereotype in this case.

It's not perfect, but instinctively, beauty is a mechanism to be attracted to people who would be good partners for raising kids. Of course, human psychism is complicated enough for that to not be totally true, but hey, whatever.

 

[Drakmar]

"You are SOOOOoooo good looking"

That is a phrase we used to use to describe an female elven bard we had in our party. This bard had a Charisma of 20. But there was no way that this character was anything but good looking because of the way the player ran the char. I have played a character with high charisma who was plain looking but had high charisma due to his force of personality (an attractive one). We just decide how the charisma is manifested.

 

[Thanee]

D&D stats are just an abstract construct like many other in the game.

As above, all attributes have these subsets, which in extreme cases could be drastically different.

The stat just shows how the ability impacts the game mechanically, it's up to you to explain why it actually does it.

Is it good looks, is it just a huge self-confidence, usually it's a mix of several things, some more some less present. The mechanical impact is the same, if you have a Cha of 16, whether it comes from this or that source mostly.

Bye
Thanee

 

[robberbaron]

In the olden days we used to have Appearance = CHA +1d6 - 1d6.
Allowed for some variation and accepted the fact that if you are good looking people will be more likely to talk to you and vice versa.

 

[Al]

I use Appearance = 3d6 + Cha mod. It has no mechanical impact, but is useful for flavour.

 

[Tonguez]

Well, this is true, but people do not seem to have much problem with charisma and I can assure you that 'personal magnetism' and what type of personality is liked also vary accross cultures and would vary enormously accross species. Neither is universal, so why is the idea of comeliness so much less popular than that of charisma?

Dogs tend to respond to firm calm 'assertive' voices showing that interSpecies interactions are affected by Charisma furthermore the skills of empathising with others (Bluff, Diplomacy et al) are universal - the difference is the form not the ability. Taking ranks in the skill allows a character to get the right form that wont insult anyone

Anyway I think your premise is wrong and comliness unnecessary

 

[dnddreamer70]

What Sav said.

The stats all cover a wide range of subset abilities for each category they typify. Strength isn't just bulk. Dexterity isn't just flexibility. Charisma isn't just how pretty you are. Likewise, within each stat you're totally free to juggle around the component bits. You can have a high strength character that doesn't have big muscles, maybe instead he's wiry and has an overabundance of energy. You can have a high charisma character that looks like he was painted on with a knife, or a low charisma character that is a real looker but absolutly lacking in self-confidence.

There's no need for a seperate comeliness stat, because frankly it doesn't affect anything on its own.

Does anyone remember the 2E Player's Option Stats...where you could split up your ability score. I don't exactly remember how that worked...can someone refresh my memory?

 

[Rl'Halsinor]

You don't want comliness then don't use it. You want comliness then use it. I truly don't see what the problem is one way or the other. Splitting hairs galore! (of course some would say we are doing just that by separating looks from the rest of the charisma stat) I mean how many house rules are out there? The parameters of the game are just that, parameters. They are tools for guidance and every DM with his or her setting can modify as they see fit. Consistancy is the key and as long as the DM makes clear what his/her game parameters are and the players understand and agree so be it. As for comliness coming out in 1st Edition Unearthed Arcana that was few years down the road from the original 3 hardbacks. We were already applying the comliness stat well before it. Like Al, it added a flavor to the game. One time we had a PC so ugly that right before we got into a fight with some Ogres one turned to this chracter and exclaimed, "You're uglier than I am!" Another time we had a half-elf that was so homely that NPCs were mistaking him for a half-orc. The real kicker was we also had a half-orc in the party that was better looking and had a better charisma.

Heck, in America we have created an atmosphere where beauty/looks have become paramount separated from everything else. Just look at the covers of magazines. There are TONS of sociological and psychological studies that have verified that good looks reign in job promotions, job interviews, and overall preferential treatment across the board. Don't tell me when someone enters a room that is down right attractive that you are saying to yourself, "Man, what a great personality."

Believe it or not, it really doesn't matter to me how many stats are in the game. I can take or leave comliness. And then I say to myself, "This is only a game. Who cares?!"

 

[Psion]

If charisma is comeliness, per the MM, my avatar is frickin' Anna Kournikova.

Really, I think d20 is remiss to exclude this oft-needed and important attribute. But it's hard to do right.

I had been conjuring up a virtual comeliness stat equal to 10 + con mod + cha mod, easily modified by injuries and the like, and largely race specific. Charisma's role here is obvious. Con is a little deeper, but basically, many things we consider beautiful are ingrained in us as signs of a healthy mate.

However, I am beginning to think beauty is somewhat subjective. (I was astonished, for example, that certainl NKLers don't find Natalie Portman beautiful.) So I am thinking the above is perhaps a "take 10" roll, and the real "comeliness" roll is d20 + cha mod + con mod.