D&D (2024) Comeliness and Representation in Recent DnD Art

[Azzy]

Speaking of body types and representation, y'all might want to check out the Daggerheart playtests. Nice range of body types. For instance:

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Fat elf.

I would be much happier with this image if his ears didn't look like they're in landing position. Other than that, nice—I've never seen a fat elf before.

 

[Faolyn]

I would be much happier with this image if his ears didn't look like they're in landing position. Other than that, nice—I've never seen a fat elf before.

Anime elf ears. Not my particular favorite, either.

 

[Umbran]

Yes. And thus you can play it safe and continue to appeal to your established market, or you can take a risk and try to broaden your appeal.

But, in terms of what I was actually responding to - "...you might say that, at the time, that kind of art had mass appeal in the market," the answer is that it might have had appeal to the market they started with (basically men), but it did not have appeal in the broader potential market - including women, and any kids whose parents look unkindly on the cheesecake.

Calling it "mass appeal" when that appeal is limited to only a segment of the potential market seems... inaccurate, to me.

 

[LesserThan]

Calling it "mass appeal" when that appeal is limited to only a segment of the potential market seems... inaccurate, to me.

Considering modern short turn gains model for business, as Larian head poited out at GDG, it is probably good that you are not in marketing.

You have to hit the mass appeal hard and fast, get in, get the money, and get out, then move on to the next thing and repeat.

Or, follow the tried and working model of, "sex sells". Since the oldest profession proved that a horny male and his money are soon parted.

When was the last time you saw a dirty toothless despot in advertising outside of a charity?

"Pretty" people sell things, "ugly" people beg for things. Marketing has not changed in 1000s of years.

 

[Zardnaar]

I'm kind of reminded of the original Star Trek series and the uniforms worn by women. A lot of people look back at those uniforms today and remark how ironic it is that such a progressive show was still rooted in the sexism of the day. But if you asked Nichelle Nichols and some other women, rather than being sexist, those uniforms were a symbol of sexual liberation. What changed? Nichelle Nichols was born in 1932 and her experience was very different from a woman born in 1982 or 2002. The thing with art, is that what we find acceptable, old fashioned, cheesy, or new and interesting changes. It could be that in thirty years time D&D art might be more risque than we would like in 2024. People born in 2034 will likely have different standards than those who were born in 2002.

I think after more than 40 years it's time to recognize that these conversations will never end because we cannot possibly reach a definitive answer. We will continue to be in a constant state of reevaluation within the context of a culture that is perpetually in flux. In an earlier post I joked about chainmail bikinis in D&D, but in truth I don't really expect nor want that. I wouldn't rule it out entirely because I'm the type of guy who believes context is important. If WotC released a new tongue-in-cheek setting where silly fantasy tropes were played to the hilt then a barbarian in a chainmail or fur bikini wouldn't be out of line. But in the PHB or part of Forgotten Realms or Eberron? Probably not.

Pretty much how I see it. I don't miss chainmail bikini but it doesn't offend me either.

Art will be offensive at some point as well.

Modern style is mostly fine I would prefer seeing it in oil vs digital though (yes I realize cost won't allow it). Cover painting though hmmnn.

 

[Fifth Element]

But, in terms of what I was actually responding to - "...you might say that, at the time, that kind of art had mass appeal in the market," the answer is that it might have had appeal to the market they started with (basically men), but it did not have appeal in the broader potential market - including women, and any kids whose parents look unkindly on the cheesecake.

Calling it "mass appeal" when that appeal is limited to only a segment of the potential market seems... inaccurate, to me.

If the potential market is known, sure. But it wasn't known. It was uncertain. Trying to expand into a new potential market, which might not even exist, at the cost of irking your existing market is risky.

Besides which, my actual point is simply that it's a matter of perspective, and the use of "mass appeal" in a dismissive way has a different flavour when you reframe it.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I would be much happier with this image if his ears didn't look like they're in landing position.

Elf ears are an indicator of mood.

If they are up and flattened the the sides of the head, this means your elf is stressed, possibly due to contact with another species who makes them wonder if elves might not be infinitely superior after all.

A healthy, contented elf's ears are at rest, extending to either side of their head in an easy, rested position. This indicates that they are being given plenty of weird preservative-filled bread and lots of positive reinforcement.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I dont think Baker implied either of those, they were applied after. Unless you have evidence to the contrary, he just designed stuff he thought, as he put it once, was cool to play.

Why do you need evidence of the creator's intent, here? The reality is that machine-people and transforming people inherently give options for people who don't fit into traditional gender roles ways to express that in gameplay. What's Keith got to do with that?

 

[Zardnaar]

Elf ears are an indicator of mood.

If they are up and flattened the the sides of the head, this means your elf is stressed, possibly due to contact with another species who makes them wonder if elves might not be infinitely superior after all.

A healthy, contented elf's ears are at rest, extending to either side of their head in an easy, rested position. This indicates that they are being given plenty of weird preservative-filled bread and lots of positive reinforcement.

How do you see the ears? I plant my elves head first in the ground. You water their feet.

Few months to one year later you get a new type of elf. Eg Astral, dark, moon,wood, valley etc.

Hard part is getting the right type of elf. Sometimes you plant a high elf going for a rock seer elf and get a star elf.

 

[LesserThan]

Why do you need evidence of the creator's intent, here? The reality is that machine-people and transforming people inherently give options for people who don't fit into traditional gender roles ways to express that in gameplay. What's Keith got to do with that?

Because Baker won a contest, otherwise he would be a nobody on DMs guild. Authorial intent matters.

Because someone identifies as a toaster does not make all toasters ones and only ones right.

Would it surprise you straight men like warforged? Would a non sex feel offended by that?

We have people here offended by not having teiflings being persecuted so the player can not be persecuted in game.

Why not create a race FOR the gender issue. Warforged have no gender, but unless memory fails me, they have no souls also.

Are warforged then gingers?

So just because someone may identify with something, you got to be careful to make sure they do not then think they own it and nobody else can use it.

Ebberon was not created as some part of any culture war. It was made to win $10,000 if my memory of these forums 20 years ago serves me correctly.

You identify as a banana. Who is allowed to sing "peanut butter jelly time", only you?