comeliness

[S'mon]

I tend to assume that comeliness is an element within charisma, so beautiful women or handsome men will tend to have high CHA, all else being equal. I don't like the idea that low CHA is necessarily either ugly or dislikable though, although extremely low CHA is probably both.

EG in my game here are two low-ish CHA characters:

Jasper the friendly dwarf: CHA 7 - homely-looking dwarf, distinctly uncharismatic, no leadership ability, but friendly and fairly likable. A good 'sidekick' type.

Alesh Marin, Mother of Obedience of the Scarlet Brotherhood: CHA 8 - beautiful Sueloise ice-maiden, her physical perfection matched by her cold, cruel demeanour. Sociopathic (if not for a magical ring that keeps her LN, thanks to Slerotin) and highly dislikable, cunning schemer.

 

[dave_o]

Combo.

I see Comliness as reflected in CHA. CHA seems sort of a combination of Comliness and Presence. A high CHA could herald an amazingly beautiful person, but without a lot of virtue and presence, or an extremely virtuious person, who isn't the best looking.

As CHA increases, these two become more balanced. So the 20 CHA Bard is both beautiful, AND interesting.

Also: The 'geek factor' keeps 'geeks' from being able to use comliness? That's rather uncool, considering most 'geeks' are also actors, writers, and generally the interesting people girls go for.

Or they have amazing wifes who they spend their lives with.

 

[Al]

Well, I invented a house rule whereby Comeliness equalled your Charisma score + 3d6. Thus, there is a lot of variation between characters of like Charisma (up to 15 points difference) and allows for uncharismatic but attractive characters and vice versa. However, as one tends to the extremes, it becomes harder to break the mould. I generally defined 21 as average (6d6 average), 25 as 'attractive', 17 as 'unattractive' and scaling from there in steps of three. Why?
1. There is no doubt that whilst beauty may differ, there is some cultural similarity. Many have said here that they only find Marilyn Monroe attractive rather than gorgeous- but they still found her attractive. No-one asserted that she was ugly.
2. Unattractiveness is fairly global. With some rare exceptions, if an ugly person was demonstrated to a group of onlookers, they would usually reach a consensus.
3. Charisma is partially based on confidence, and confidence is partially based on physical appearance- or vice versa (which causes which is irrelevant).
4. People do react better to attractive people. No argument there.
Thus, Charisma should be pegged to Appearance in some way or another. However, for the reasons given, it would be difficult to peg it exactly, so the 3d6 allows variety: a Charisma 14 character could be unattractive, a Charisma 7 character could be attractive; however, as said before, if taken to the extremes, the two converge. Charisma 3 characters can at best be 'average' and are more likely to be unattractive, ugly or worse; a Charisma 22 character could be no worse than attractive, but more likely comely, beautiful/handsome, gorgeous etc.

 

[LostSoul]

Thus, Charisma should be pegged to Appearance in some way or another.

Another way to do it: roll 3d6 + Charisma mod.

 

[rounser]

As someone mentioned earlier, it seems some people on this thread need to disabuse themselves of notions of universal beauty.

For example, I remember a story regarding missionaries who were with a tribe (somewhere, can't recall details), and the tribesmen suggested that the men among the caucasian missionaries get themselves a beautiful tribeswoman for a wife, with alluringly big lips and deep brown skin tone, rather than what they considered the pale, sickly and wasted looking white women who they brought with them, with hair the colour of dying grass. Marilyn Munroe would probably not appeal to such folk - and they are far from alone.

What I've read suggests that what people consider beautiful is determined primarily by the appearance of members of the opposite sex around them when they're growing up - among humans at least - and perhaps to a much lesser extent by genes. For example, if you are a caucasian growing up among asians, or vice versa, your taste in the opposite sex is likely to get skewed towards the looks of those around you as you grew up. And that's just humans.

To apply this to fantasy, half-orcs and half-elves probably have a preference for the appearance of partners of the race that they were raised among. Given that elves and dwarves aren't even human, you can pile on a genetic preference on top of that - ensuring that human-demihuman marriages are rare - as they should be IMO!

 

[LostSoul]

Marilyn Munroe would probably not appeal to such folk - and they are far from alone.

Marilyn Monroe might not attract some straight males - there's no accounting for taste - but I'd say that she would look good to about 99% of them. You can't beat good skin, long legs, firm buttocks, round breasts, youth, and a good waist to hip ratio.

 

[S'mon]

Marilyn Monroe might not attract some straight males - there's no accounting for taste - but I'd say that she would look good to about 99% of them. You can't beat good skin, long legs, firm buttocks, round breasts, youth, and a good waist to hip ratio.

I think many cultures don't find big shiny white teeth or a childlike demeanour attractive in the way that the American one does, but I agree that Monroe's physical form would be considered attractive in the majority of cultures, among heterosexual males. However there are cultures for which the norm of beauty is eg long pendulous breasts, not round firm ones...

 

[LostSoul]

I think many cultures don't find big shiny white teeth or a childlike demeanour attractive in the way that the American one does, but I agree that Monroe's physical form would be considered attractive in the majority of cultures, among heterosexual males. However there are cultures for which the norm of beauty is eg long pendulous breasts, not round firm ones...

I thought shiny white teeth were a show of health - look, I can eat well and take care of my teeth, I have lots of resources/enough health to bear children.

Surprised about the breasts, though. I would think that males would prefer the breasts of young women, not old (and infertile) ones. Oh well, perhaps those are unsuccessful cultures.

 

[rounser]

Marilyn Monroe might not attract some straight males - there's no accounting for taste - but I'd say that she would look good to about 99% of them. You can't beat good skin, long legs, firm buttocks, round breasts, youth, and a good waist to hip ratio.

Hip-to-waste ratio, a healthy appearance and youth are pretty universal among men's preference in women, but the devil's in the details, and when it comes to beauty, details are all that matter - shape of face, nose, lips, cheekbones and chin, size of facial features, colour of hair and skin, shape of breasts, amount of body fat, even such subtle things as whether the earlobe is attached or unattached! Judgements of what is a healthy appearance also differ - it doesn't take too much of a stretch of the imagination to view white skin as decidedly unhealthy-looking, even freakish, to the eyes of those used to judging the health of bronze or dark brown skintones. Do albinos look healthy to you?

Of course, we're all human so there are bound to be some things in common, but there are a lot more than 1% of the population on this earth who might even be slightly repulsed by Munroe's appearance. Truly, your taste in beauty (and mine) are most certainly not definitive....and in the case of Munroe (who has a highly specialised scandinavian look) I'd expect she'd look quite alien (and not necessarily in a good way) to a good deal of this world's population.

 

[LostSoul]

...and in the case of Munroe (who has a highly specialised scandinavian look) I'd expect she'd look quite alien (and not necessarily in a good way) to a good deal of this world's population.

I guess I'm just thinking about her standing around naked. You're right about the 99%. Sometimes I get carried away.