Comments and questions on 3.5 from a Newbie

[painandgreed]

(Actually, I'm sure it would be far, far, far worse than what I just wrote ...)

Not really, do individual initiatives managed by the file card system and each person preforms their action in order when called by the DM. Let them handle all the bonus' and such. If you're using miniatures or whiteboard, AoO are simple, and if you are not, then they are DM call or just drop them all together.

 

[kenobi65]

Not really, do individual initiatives managed by the file card system and each person preforms their action in order when called by the DM. Let them handle all the bonus' and such.

Yup, that's really the only way to do it. At the beginning of combat, have each PC roll their own initiative, and create an initiative order based on that (I use index cards, too, but you can also just make a list on a piece of paper). Characters don't get to act until it's their initiative, so that cuts down on a lot of the stuff you're imagining.

If you're using miniatures or whiteboard, AoO are simple, and if you are not, then they are DM call or just drop them all together.

Honestly, understanding what might provoke an AoO is a big reason to use a battlemat and minis, unless your players are *really* good at visualizing and remembering.

 

[Storm Raven]

(With what crude knowledge of 3.5 Yours Truly has, he goes where No Gamer Was Meant to Go Before.)



1 DM, 6 players, all newbies to 3.5.
No miniatures or grid maps (or maps of any kind) being used.
Standard dice, character sheets, pepsi, books on table.
Players argumentative, players only half understand rules, DM only half understands rules.

In Game Combat: 20 orcs break down door and charge party.

Player 1 (P1) I fire my bow.
P2: I charge.
P3: I stand and fight.
P4: (looks up from petting the cat) I ... uh ... hmmm ... fire an arrow at the closest orc.
P5: Pardons, but I have to go to the bathroom. Be back in time to do something.
P6: I ... hmmm ... can I wait and declare my action later?
DM to P6: Yes.
DM: Party wins initiative!

Stop here. You've already incorrectly translated two 1e/2e rules to 3e. First off, there is no party initiative. Each party member rolls initiative, applies their initiative modifier and comes up with an individual initiative score. The Dm rolls for the opponents (usually as a group, or smaller subgroups, for example, were I running an encounter with 4 goblins and 4 hobgoblins opposing the party, I would roll the goblins and hobgoblins separately).

Second, you do not have to declare our actions ahead of your actual initiative action. You may wait until your turn in the combat to decide what you want to do.

P1: (rolls 15) It's a hit!
DM: Let me see. According to this, your bow has an enhancement bonus of + 3, it is a strength bow + 2, and you had a BAB of + 4, but ...

Player's should have their basic modifiers written down on their character sheet, allowing them to calculate their attacks easily. For example, suppose the character in question is a 4th level fighter, with 15 Strength, and a 15 Dexterity, using a mighty (+2 Str) masterwork composite longbow. His attacks with his bow are at +7 with the bow (+4 BAB, +2 Dex, +1 MW). He should have this written on his character sheet. If he rolls a 15, his attack score is 22 (15 + 7). If this is higher than the target's AC, he hits. The Dm should have the player give him the total result, including modifiers, not the raw roll. He does 1d8+2 damage if he hits (1d8 for the bow, +2 for Strength).

P2: (interrupting) I chop my orc! (rolls 16) I hit! (rolls 12) I hit again.
P3: (also interrupting) Have they reached me yet?
DM: Uh ... ok, you hit the orc for ... roll damage, please for your bow.
P2: (misunderstanding) 12 points. And 15 points. Plus my enhancement bonus, which is 17 points. That's 44 points.

Sequential initiative cures this problem. For example, suppose the initiative results for the players in question were: P1 - 24, P2 - 17, P3 - 14, P4 - 11, P5 - 10, P6 - 4. In that case, P2 would not act until after P1's actions had been resolved. This will cure a lot of confusion.

P1: Don't I get an AOO?
DM: Uh ...
P3: I'm tired of waiting. I charge.
P6: I fire my bow.

Sequential initiative takes care of this. Further, initiative is cyclical in 3e, meaning that once the initative order is determined, it does not change from round to round. The combatants act in the same order each round for the duration of combat, the actions just revolve in order.

DM to P1: 2 orcs charge up to you to attack.
P1: I get my AOO on them! (rolls)
DM: No, that's only when ...
P1: 12 and 17 points of damage.

Unless you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you only get one AoO per round. Your AoO's "reset" on your action. Let's assume that the orcs got a 13 for their initiative. Using my hypothetical example from above, they would go after P1, P2, and P3, but before P4, P5, and P6. (Note, at the start of combat, for the first round only, you are flat-footed until you act in the combat, which denies you your Dexterity bonus to AC, makes you vulnerable to sneak attacks, and prevents you from making AoOs unless you have the Combat Reflexes feat).

Further, you do not get an AoO when someone enters your threatened area. Only when someone moves through or out of your threatened area. Also note that a 5 foot step never draw an AoO for movement, and if the only thing you do in a round is move (not run), then the first 5 feet you move is considered to be "not threatened".

P2: I get AOO on those 2 also. They were within 10 feet of me! (rolls) 18 and 13 damage!
P3: I get AOO too. How many orcs are now attacking me?
P6: I rolled a 5. Does that hit?
P1: I should get AOO on every orc that charges P3, since they go right by me.

Once again, you only get one AoO per round, unless you have the Combat Reflexes feat, an then you get 1 + 1 per every point of Dexterity bonus you have.

P2: And I should also.
DM: But you're carrying a bow ...
P3: A bow allows AOO.
DM: No it doesn't.
P3: Yes it does (grabs PHB.) I'll prove it.

No, it doesn't. A ranged weapon does not threaten an area. Only a melee weapon does.

P1: How many AOO do I get? Where are all these orcs?
DM: 5 raced by, 2 are on you ... uh ... 3 are on P1.
P1: I chop all 5 (starts rolling)
DM: They are out of range.
P1: Whadda mean, they are out of range?! They're running right by me!
P2: I still think I get AOO. Can I whack them with the bow? Better yet, I'll try Trip.
P3: I make my AOO on all 5 charging me.
DM: I didn't say they were charging you.
P3: Then I whack as many as I can.
P5: (returns from the bathroom) I throw a Fireball. I throw it 50 feet up. That should kill those orcs.
DM: That gives them AOOs on you.
P5: But weren't all my friends standing in front of me? Where are you guys standing?
P2: I know, I'll jab them with the arrows.
P1: I whack every orc that rushes by.
P3: I bull rush my orc, then trip the second one, then leap on the third.
DM: Uh ...
P4: (continues scratching the housecat, not paying attention) Can I make a sneak attack?

Most of this is solved by sequential initative, and a grasp on the rules limiting AoOs to one per round, with melee weapons only.

 

[Staffan]

Well then, with the Spiked Chain ...

Don't you get an AOO when your opponent turns tail and runs ...

From the 5 foot square next to you, AND ...
From the 10 foot square next to that which you also threaten?

Seems to me you'd get 2 AOO on said hapless opponent (if ture, said opponent wouldn't be running anywhere ...)

No. Any amount of movement only qualifies for one AoO.

 

[William Ronald]

Generally, I have found that sequential initative solves many of the problems in the post. One thing to remember is that there is a good chart on what provokes an attack of opportunity in the Player's Handbook.

For opponents, it might just be best to roll a single initative for them -- or one for a leader and another for their followers.

Writing down the adjusted BABs and initiatives can work well. Many DMs I know ask players to inform them of their initiave, spot, search, and listen modifiers. Players generally can help a DM by keeping track of initiative and rolling damage. (You can also have players roll d20s and the appropriate damage dice at the same time to speed up play.)

Maybe you can check if there is going to be a demo game in your area. Or possibly one of the board members in your area might be willing to set up a demo game.

 

[MerricB]

3.5e combat goes a lot more like this:

DM: The door breaks down and 10 orcs charge into the room! Roll initiative!
P1: I get a 24
P2: I get a 22
P3: I get a 15
P4: I get a 12
P5: I get a 7
P6: I get a 0. My die sucks!
DM: P1, you're up first. The orcs are 20 feet away.
P1: I draw my sword and charge them. *rolls d20* A 17! And a +2 for the charge makes 19! Do I hit?
DM: Sure. Roll damage.
P1: *clatter* 10 points.
DM: The orc goes down.
P1: I've got Cleave! Is there another orc next to me?
DM: Yes. Go for it.
P1: *clatter* A 22 this time. *clatter* only 6 damage.
DM: That's still enough. Eight orcs left.
P2: I start casting a sleep spell.
DM: Sure. That's a long casting time... I wonder if there'll be any orcs left.
P2: I can dream... or they can.
P3: I draw my bow and fire. A six. That's not enough, is it?
DM: Not a chance - and they have cover.
P4: My turn...
DM: Not quite. The orcs beat you for initiative. Four of them surround P1. *clatter* Hmm. Rolls of 10, 14, 17 and 22. You've lost 2 from your AC for charging. How many hit?
P1: Two. I've an AC of 16 at the moment.
DM: Right. You take 6 and 8 damage.
P1: Help! Only 2 hp left!
DM: The other four orcs push past you to get to your friends. They'd all provoke attacks of opportunity, but you don't have Combat Reflexes. Have on AoO anyway.
P1: A 15. Is that enough?
DM: Yep.
P1: Another 10 damage! Pity I've already cleaved this turn.
DM: Not for me. Right, P4 and P5 they're attacking you. *clatter*. I miss P4, P5, you can take 10 damage.
P5: Help! Rogue on ground!
P4: Finally, my turn. Err... attack or heal? What a decision!
P5: Help me!
P4: You're unconscious!
P5: Help!
P4: Oh, very well. I cast cure light wounds on him. I'll cast defensively as well. Lucky I took Combat Casting! *rolls* A 16. Just enough! *clatter* Have 8 hp, rogue
P5: Thanks!
DM: Right, P5 is conscious but prone. What are you doing?
P5: Err... standing up and attacking.
DM: Well, the two orcs next to you get attacks of opportunity against you. *clatter*. One hit. Take 5.
P5: 1 hp! Help!
P4: You've already had it!
P5: I stab the annoying orc with my rapier. Hey! 18! That's a threat!
DM: Sure is. Roll to confirm.
P5: Natural 20! It takes some damage... *clatter* 14 points!
DM: Another orc down. Only six left - four around P1, and other two near P4 and P5.
P6: A Druid's work is never done. I command my wolf to attack the orcs *rolls* successfully, and then heal P5. *rolls* heal 7 points. The wolf: *rolls* It got a 12. Is that enough?
DM: Not quite.
P1: Back to me! Barbarian Rage! Attack! *clatter, clatter* Two more orcs die.
P2: My turn! The sleep spell takes effect.
DM: Right. You can get all of orcs in its effect - P1 will be in the effect, but he's higher level then the orcs and should be safe. What's the DC on the save?
P2: DC 14.
DM: *clatter* Well, three of the orcs are asleep. One's left.
P3: I use Rapid Shot against the last orc.
DM: It's still got cover and is in melee with P1.
P3: Precise Shot cancels out some of that. *rolls* My dice hate me.
DM: With reason.
P3: Hey!
DM: The remaining orc looks around the room, gulps, and starts humming a funeral dirge as it attacks P1. *rolls* I guess it misses.
P4: At last! Can I move to flank?
DM: Well, there are bodies all around and everything... but I guess so.
P4: Right! I move in and stab the orc. *rolls* A 15!
DM: That's a hit, sure enough.
P4: And Sneak attack damage! Well, well. Did it have 16 hp?
DM: Unfortunately not. I guess you want to loot the bodies now?
All: Yes!

Cheers!

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

In Game Combat: 20 orcs break down door and charge party.

I hope that's not a real example. 20 orcs would be a boring fight, even if they had different classes. You probably shouldn't use more than 3 NPCs per PC, and only if those NPCs are really weak. You might want to check out the CR system, too.

PS I noticed in your example that the players had +3 weapons already. There are specific rules hidden in the DMG about how much magic gear PCs of a certain level are supposed to have. 1st-level PCs aren't going to have +3 weapons unless you weren't paying attention the the treasure you generated

 

[sniffles]

Merric, that was great!!

Edena, you should read through the play-by-play description of a game session in the DMG if you get the opportunity. It's very similar to what Merric has done, and IMHO very helpful.

No game session should be like the one you described unless the players are all 12 years old or drunk. My group all came from 2e, and none of us had a fabulous grasp of all the rules when we started our first 3e game, but it still ran very smoothly. I particularly like 3e's rules for initiative, and the simplicity of determining your attack bonuses - I always found Thac0 counterintuitive with its possibility of negative results.

Keep those questions/comments coming! This is a really entertaining and informative thread, even for someone like me who's been playing 3e since about a month after it was released.

 

[StormCrow42]

Edena, you should read through the play-by-play description of a game session in the DMG if you get the opportunity. It's very similar to what Merric has done, and IMHO very helpful.

Agreed, the sample of how an adventure goes (starting on page 8 of the DMG) is a great beginning example. As a bit of an aside, how many people noticed that the adventure is the same one that was used in previous editions of AD&D, just updated to the 3.5 mechanics?

 

[FireLance]

Agreed, the sample of how an adventure goes (starting on page 8 of the DMG) is a great beginning example. As a bit of an aside, how many people noticed that the adventure is the same one that was used in previous editions of AD&D, just updated to the 3.5 mechanics?

Except for the bit where the poor gnome (revised to Lidda in 3e) gets ripped to shreds by the ghouls. In the new edition, the ghouls will spend so much time arguing about the CDG rules that the rest of the party should be able to surprise them .