Comments and questions on 3.5 from a Newbie

[Edena_of_Neith]

Thanks again for helping me. For example, I would never have caught that you don't add BAB to Opposed Strength Checks. And I did not understand Criticals. I think I do now.
Cheers to you all.

I'll follow with more examples later. And, unfortunately, I will continue to make mistake after mistake after mistake (I will doggedly continue with it, but I can only hope YOU don't become so frustrated with me you give up. I'm a real clutz here, I fear. I feel like a toddler learning to walk! )

I'll continue with Joe Fighter and Joe Orc. You can see why I made them such basic characters.

I'm going offline for now. I will be back tonight. Thanks again, everyone.

Yours Truly
Edena_of_Neith

 

[FireLance]

Joe Fighter sees Joe Orc standing 30 feet away.

...

Joe Fighter rolls initiative 7, and Joe Orc rolls intiative 5. With Dexterity modifiers of + 1 each, Joe Fighter wins initiative.
On round 1, the two close with each other, but neither hits the other. Round 1 is a dud.

Maybe just one minor point here: "the two close with each other" covers quite a lot of possibilities that could have gone on in the first round.

1. Joe Fighter wins initiative. He is 30 feet away from Joe Orc, and his move is 20 feet, so he can charge Joe Orc if the terrain between them is clear and he already has a weapon in hand.
- Joe Fighter charges, and gets a +2 bonus to his attack roll. In addition, Joe Orc is flat-footed, so his AC is only 20 (from armor and shield; Dexterity and Dodge bonuses do not apply). Joe Fighter needs to roll an 16 or better to hit Joe Orc. However, he rolls a 12 and misses.
- It is now Joe Orc's turn, and he decides to attack Joe Fighter. Joe Fighter has acted and is not flat-footed, so he gets his Dexterity and Dodge bonuses to AC. However, he has charged, so his AC is penalized by 2. Joe Fighter has AC 20 and Joe Orc needs to roll an 18 or better to hit him. He rolls a 9 and misses.

2. If Joe Fighter does not have a weapon in hand, he may draw a weapon as a move action. Because his BAB is +1 or higher, he can combine this with a regular move.
- Joe Fighter uses his move action to move 20 feet towards Joe Orc, drawing his longsword while he does so. He still has a standard action left, so he declares that he will ready an attack against Joe Orc when he comes within melee reach.
- Joe Orc is now 10 feet from Joe Fighter. If the terrain between them is clear, and he has a weapon in hand, he can charge Joe Fighter, getting a +2 bonus to hit, and taking a -2 penalty on AC. If not, he can also move towards Joe Fighter, drawing a weapon as he does so and attack as a standard action.
- Either way, Joe Fighter gets an attack against Joe Orc before Joe Orc attacks him because he has readied an attack. He needs to hit AC 22 if Joe Orc simply moved and attacked, or AC 20 if Joe Orc charged. Joe Orc is no longer flat-footed since he has acted.
- Joe Orc then gets to attack Joe Fighter. Joe Fighter's AC is 22, but Joe Orc's attack bonus is +2 if he simply moved and attacked, and +4 if he charged.

3. Instead of readying an attack, Joe Fighter could move and delay his standard action until Joe Orc acts. If Joe Fighter delays instead of readying an action, Joe Orc's attack resolves first, and then Joe Fighter gets to use his standard action. This gives Joe Fighter the flexibility of responding to what Joe Orc does, but it changes the initiative order. In subsequent rounds, Joe Orc acts before Joe Fighter.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

The opinions of a Newbie (probably wrong, but here they are)

I am very rapidly coming to believe that any basic fighter worth her salt should have the following feats:

Combat Expertise
- Improved Disarm
- Improved Feint
- Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes
Dodge
Improved Unarmed Strike
- Improved Grapple
Power Attack
- Improved Bull Rush
- Improved Overrun
- Improved Sunder
Quickdraw
Weapon Finesse

This represents a fighter (IMO) who not only knows her armor, shield, and weapons, but actually knows how to fight, as in Fight fight. She doesn't stand there fencing, she fights to win. She can brawl, grapple, or do whatever dirty work it takes to win.
She's still not a specialist at anything. She's just a good Fighter at fighting.

-

Why these feats first?

Consider:

Combat Expertise

You must have this Feat to take the Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, and Improved Trip Feats. And being able to substitute a bonus to your AC from your BAB, up to + 5, can be useful ... especially if you're injured badly. Most fighters, like Arilyn Moonblade (Arilyn Moonflower, really) tend to get injured badly.

- Improved Disarm

A disarmed opponent is in real trouble. If he stoops to retrieve his weapon, Arilyn gets an immediate AOO against him. If he draws another weapon, that's a move action expended by him (no Full Round Attack is now possible for him, and a lot of other actions are now prohibited as well.) If he runs out of weapons, he's got more trouble, since any unarmed attacks by him against Arilyn provoke AOOs from her.

- Improved Feint

If Arilyn can deny an opponent his Dexterity and Dodge bonuses, her love Danilo Thann can then easily succeed with a Touch Attack or Ranged Touch Attack spell. Any other allies of Arilyn (especially those with Full Attack Rounds coming) are going to have a field day.
And, of course, Improved Feint is a move action, so Arilyn herself gets an attack immediately following the feint (or any other standard action she wants to take.)

- Improved Trip

Based on what I know of trip, it's really nice, but you provoke an AOO if you try it. With this Feat, Arilyn don't provoke such an AOO. A tripped opponent is prone, Arilyn gets + 4 to strike at him with her moonblade, he is at - 4 to strike back, and if he tries to stand she gets an AOO. A tripped opponent is easily to disarm, since Arilyn is at + 4 to hit.
Yes, if Arilyn fails in her trip attempt, the opponent can try to trip her. Arilyn isn't going to attempt it unless she thinks she can succeed!

Combat Reflexes

Who wouldn't want this one? Arilyn can make AOO when flat-footed. If she trips an opponent, and he tries to get up and then tries to run, she gets 2 AOOs against him just for that, in addition to her normal attacks. This means, he isn't going anywhere.
If in a major melee, with many beings crammed together, jostling, confused, moving in and out, Arilyn is going to get multiple AOO against multiple foes.

Dodge

This feat isn't so impressive in itself, but it's bonus stacks with Dexterity and other Dodge bonuses. And it must be taken to obtain more specialized Feats (I could be wrong, but Spring Attack seems like an very strong Feat. The opponent doesn't get to strike back at all.)

Improved Unarmed Strike

This one speaks for itself. No weapon? No problem, because the foe does not get an AOO against Arilyn if she attacks by kicking the foe, chopping with her hands at the foe, trying to poke an eye out, or other similar attacks.
Arilyn can make unarmed strikes for lethal damage without the - 4 penalty.
And best of all, Arilyn is still considered Armed, when unarmed. She can make AOOs normally, even without the moonblade, into adjoining 5 foot squares. If her opponent is unarmed, she gets AOO against him every single time he attacks (if she has Combat Reflexes, which she should have.) He dooms himself to oblivion if he tries multiple attacks against her unarmed.

Improved Grapple

Grappling is a part of combat, IMO, pure and simple. Few fighters just fence, they struggle and brawl and duel and try to win!
If Arilyn has this Feat, she provokes no AOO for attempting to grapple (which means her opponent can't disrupt the grapple) She gets a + 4 bonus to all grapple checks, sorta like she was a Large being. If she grapples successfully, she can attempt a pin (also with the + 4) and a pinned opponent is doomed.

Power Attack

A favorite, apparently, of every fighter. Substitute damage for your BAB, up to your BAB. Arilyn gains double this bonus for wielding the moonblade in both hands. And this extra damage is applied to each of her attacks, not just one (including her AOO.)

- Improved Bull Rush

This Feat allows Arilyn to move the opponent to where she wants him, which is nice if it's into quicksand, water, a hole in the ground, or the like. But Bull Rush provokes an AOO; with this Feat it does not. And this Feat adds + 4 to the Bull Rush.

- Improved Overrun

No avoiding your overrun. No blocking your overrun. Arilyn slams right into the opponent regardless of what he does to avoid her. + 4 to knock him down. If he's knocked down, he's got a serious problem ...

- Improved Sunder

The opponent has one heck of a big two-handed sword, or one of those greataxes. He's really, really, really good at wielding those weapons, too. Arilyn doesn't wish to be struck by those weapons, so she attempts a sunder. No AOO for the opponent. The opponent also has a magical necklace or headband, and she can attempt to sunder those, also provoking no AOO.

Quickdraw

It takes a move action to draw a weapon normally. No Full Round Attack for anyone who must draw weapons! But Arilyn has quickdraw, so she can draw her moonblade and make a Full Round Attack with it in the same round. Or draw a hidden dagger and attack once with it.

Weapon Finesse

If you are dextrous, this Feat allows flexibility. If you do not have the Two-Weapon Proficiency Feat, this Feat helps with the penalties if you are dextrous. If you like to pick up and use improvised weapons in your off-hand (anything from beer mugs to small rocks to sharpened sticks) then this Feat helps with the penalties. Combine this Feat with Two-Weapon Proficiency, and you will be adept at picking up and using just about anything Light in your off-hand, if you're dextrous.

...

Am I right on this?
What are your opinions?

And, where/how do I get ALL of the above Feats as part of a 1st Level Starting Fighter Package?

 

[glass]

(chuckles) Then add that Diehard Feat where you can function at negative hit points. THAT'S who I want in the front of the party, defending my cleric! (And I see that clerics have an orison that stops the barbarian from dying from going to negative hit points, based on what I've read further on in the book. The cleric starts with 3 of those, too.)

Diehard tends to get you killed, because if you are still up the enemy will still be hitting you.

I like the Uncanny Dodge ability of the barbarian a lot. It seems from reading further that everyone gets caught Flat-Footed, typically, but not anyone with Uncanny Dodge. So the barbarian will start the fight with full Dex bonuses.
If you're not wearing armor (and from reading further on it seems wearing armor in 3.5 is quite onerous) then you're dead, if caught Flat Footed with no dexterity bonus to AC.

Technically, a character with Uncanny Dodge is still flat-footed, he just doesn't suffer for it like others do.

Greater Rage: If what I am reading is true, a 20th level barbarian using Greater Rage, who had an 18 constitution before using Greater Rage, would gain 60 hit points. That is because the hit point bonus at 18 con is + 4, but the hit point bonus at 24 con is + 7, and the barbarian gains 6 points of con from his Greater Rage. Multiply 3 times 20 levels, and you have 60 hit points.

Sounds about right, except that a 20th level barbarian wouldn't be using greater rage: as you mention below, he has mighty rage by then. Don't forget though, you loose those hp again when the rage ends. That can be nasty if you have taken damage in the mean time.

Tireless Rage: So Fatigue causes - 2 to Strength and Dexterity, right? That alters BAB, damage rolls, and AC normally, right? They are all penalized?

Yes, except Strength changes affect his total attack bonus, but not his base attack bonus.


glass.

 

[monboesen]

Well thats a very long list of feats. While they are all good I hardly think a fighter needs all of them. Remember you can still try many of those tricks (disarm, trip etc.) without the feats. You are just not as good at it.

In my experience it pays of to specialise in D&D. You choose something to be good at and then spend feats, skills and money (on equipment) to excel at that. If you try being an all-rounder you end up being bad at everything and good at nothing.

So you either choose to be a tripper, or a grabbler or a power attack/cleaver. There is room for some overlap, but it wouldn't IMO pay of to go for all those feats.

As few players take fighter levels beyond 4-6 level (by then they multiclass with another fighting class, rogue levels or a prestige class), it would be a rare character that had the feats to take all those on your list.

 

[BeauNiddle]

A true Master of Melee probably would want all of those. And the nice thing about fighters is they can acrue all of those feats in their career (although not at first level unfortunately).

However a lot of fighters wish to become Wielder of Weapon X and thus concentrate on weapon focus, weapon specialisation, greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialisation rather than the more generic feats.

Improved Feint - not particularly useful for fighters as they rarely have a high bluff score. Also having flat footed opponents doesn't give that much of a bonus since a fighters BAB is often enough to get through the armour regardless of if the enemy has a dex bonus or not. This is a great feat for Rogues or Fighter/Rogues tho (since it gives them a chance to sneak attack).

Combat reflexes - only really worth it if you have a dex bonus of +2 or greater. Since a lot of fighters aim for full plate with a max dex of +1 a high dex bonus isn't that common. For those with this is a good feat.

Improved Unarmed Strike - locking gauntlets are great for beating disarm attempts. Quick draw is also another solution. I've not seen anybody take this feat but then again I haven't seen many characters so your milage may vary

Improved grapple - chances are the creature grappling you is big than large so I'm not sure a +4 bonus is worth it. However considering how dangerous grappling is it's probably a good choice especially since fighters have feats to burn

Weapon finesse - again good for dextrous characters. You'll need a dex bonus at least 2 better than your strength bonus otherwise it can be more effective to take weapon focus.

Quickdraw - this is a really useful feat for fighters who use lots of weapons. Round one use a bow, at the end of the round drop the bow (free action) and quickdraw a reach weapon (free action). The enemy then charges you giving you an AoO for movement. Round 2 drop the reach weapon, quickdraw a melee weapon and still get a full attack. It's a nice feat however a lot of fighters don't bother taking it since you can combine drawing a weapon with a move as long as you have a +1 BAB. This means even if you start the round with a sheathed weapon you can draw it whilst closing with the enemies.

You might also want to look into (improved) Shield Bash - can be very useful for Sword and Board fighters.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I'm calling the 14 Feats above the Down and Dirty Feats, simply because it seems to me that they make for a good Down and Dirty fighter.

As far as I know, a fighter would gain them as follows:

1st level: 1 Feat + 1 Feat (if human) + 1 Fighter Feat
2nd level: 1 Fighter Feat
3rd level: I Level Feat
4th level: 1 Fighter Feat
6th level: 1 Level Feat, 1 Fighter Feat
8th level: 1 Fighter Feat
9th level: 1 Level Feat
10th level: 1 Fighter Feat
12th level: 1 Level Feat, 1 Fighter Feat
14th level: 1 Fighter Feat
15th level: 1 Level Feat

(Obviously, nobody is going to take a fighter to 15th level, and select those Feats. I was just giving an example of how I * think * you could create my theoretical Master Down and Dirty Fighter.)

I suppose a Gestalt character could do it faster, but I don't know how. You can't be a Fighter/Fighter, even with the Gestalt rules, and the other classes are not Feat rich (Rangers and Paladins, for example, do not get free Fighter Feats at 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, etc. levels.)

But woah, if you had the 14 Down and Dirty Feats, and THEN you specialized, everyone watch out!

 

[glass]

I've read the Critical Rules. Nasty. And some weapons are a lot better at criticals, like that funny looking knife (The Kukri.) You get double, triple, or quadruple the damage (before Strength modifiers.) 2 - 16 isn't bad damage for a long sword.
3 to 36 points for a Great Axe Critical?

Not before strength modifiers. They get multiplied too, along with any other bonus damage that isn't dice.


glass.

 

[glass]

Yes it is. And they are no longer Chaotic Evil either. Now they are neutral evil.

They are? Wow, I missed that.


glass.

 

[glass]

Is anyone else just having a complete ball reading Edena's reactions? It's totally taking me back to when I first cracked open the 3.0 PHB. "They changed this? Holy cow! Ooh! Look at that! Shiney!"

Thanks for a very entertaining thread, Edena!

I'm enjoying it, when I really should be doing coursework...


glass.