Community designed martial controller

[Quickleaf]

I'd like to propose a community design project for those of you who are interested in the concept and implementation of a martial controller.

I know there have been several classes written up including the Auxiliary and Lancer among others, but they were designed (mostly) by one person getting feedback on their work. This approach is one where a team of folks create a concept from the ground up, divvy up powers, talk with each other, playtest, and all the stuff that goes along with designing a class. The first step is to come up with a strong concept we can all agree on...I anticipate this being difficult but rewarding.

If you are appalled at the idea of a martial controller, move along, this is not the thread you are looking for. *jedi mind trick*


Anyone up for a challenge?

 

[Psikus]

. The first step is to come up with a strong concept we can all agree on...I anticipate this being difficult but rewarding.

The way I see it, you need a way to justify having lots of area attacks. I think 'melee burst 1' is covered to death by existing strikers and defenders, and it would be hard to make a class focused on that kind of attacks feel controlling and diferent. We are left with ranged attacks, or reach weapons.

It is certainly possible to implement area or burst attacks with ranged or thrown weapons, and you have plenty examples of that in ranger and rogue powers. However, when basing a whole class around that, you come up with a problem: these areas are always a bit forced. Magic users can always fall down to the 'elemental explosion' trick for their areas, which comes in many shapes and colors, but archers and the like must do the less convincing 'barrage of missiles'.

My issue with 'missile barrage' area attacks, is that I wouldn't like to see too many of them. But more than half of a controller's attacks should be area-based. The 'natural' kind of multi-target attack for an archer is, in my opinion, just to choose 2 or three enemies and attack them. But I'm afraid that is less tactically interesting (although of course more powerful) than blasts or bursts.

On the other hand, the reach weapon warrior has a built-in area of effect. Close burst 2 (or melee burst 2, for that matter) is uncommon enough, and I think it would open some interesting design space. It is also not too much of a stretch to turn a spear attack into a close blast. The challenge here would be to fit within the controller role: you'd really want features and powers to encourage keeping enemies away from the lancer, or you end up with a class too simmilar to fighters. Another drawback would be a general lack of ranged attacks.

I like the polearm controller concept best, but either idea would be interesting.

Finally, some random thoughts:
- Some alternate area of effects would fit well into the martial power source, including: adjacent enemies, enemies flanking a target, enemies within a burst 2 not adjacent to you, etc.
- A very cool trick to give spear controllers ranged attacks would be pushing an enemy within reach into other targets, damaging both when they collide.
- We'd have to work out how to replace controlling zones and conjurations with stances.

 

[Quickleaf]

The way I see it, you need a way to justify having lots of area attacks. I think 'melee burst 1' is covered to death by existing strikers and defenders, and it would be hard to make a class focused on that kind of attacks feel controlling and diferent. We are left with ranged attacks, or reach weapons.

That was my assumption too, at first.

But what if there is a way to affect multiple targets without area of effect attacks? For example, what if the MC was based on controlling through time and (like the trick you suggested) using enemies against each other? Kind of a manipulator/aikido/trickster type character.

One example of this is creating auras/zones based on enemies which affect its other enemies. Some ways this could work:
* Knocking enemy into its enemies, push enemy 1 square and create close burst 1 around its dazing foes.
* Infuriate an enemy then shift away, it pushes or attacks other enemies in order to get to you & no longer provides flanking bonus & ignores your allies.
* Strike a creature's artery, causing it to spray blood over nearby enemies either blinding them or creating difficult terrain.
* You momentarily slip from view and close burst 1 centered on a (formerly) adjacent enemy causes enemies to have a chance to hit one another.

Another is establishing control zones (blast 1, creates a zone that moves with you, possibly as a stance or sustain minor)

enemies within a burst 2 not adjacent to you, etc.

Interesting way to model some polearm attacks.

We'd have to work out how to replace controlling zones and conjurations with stances.

Agreed, the closest idea I can come to this so far are watched over areas that grant opp attacks if entered/action X is taken there.

 

[chronoplasm]

One idea I had for a martial controller involved some variation of the Swarm Attack Aura.
That is, whenever an enemy starts its turn adjacent to you, you get to make an attack against that enemy. Trying to balance it is kind of a problem though...

 

[chronoplasm]

Oh, I also have some ideas for flavor:

Vigilante
A class based on super-hero tropes. Mostly proto-heroes or "Mystery Men" like Doc Savage. Maybe a splash of Lucha Libre wrestling in there inspired by El Santo.
You strike fear into the hearts of criminals, so your ability to juggle enemies is enhanced with Fear effects.

Tucker
You use tactics inspired by the legendary Tucker's Kobolds.

 

[Quickleaf]

One idea I had for a martial controller involved some variation of the Swarm Attack Aura.
That is, whenever an enemy starts its turn adjacent to you, you get to make an attack against that enemy. Trying to balance it is kind of a problem though...

Easy, make it the inverse of a fighter's mark. So only a creature that's been "marked" (it would need different name & mechanics) by the MC that starts its turn adjacent is subject to an opp attack.

Oh, I also have some ideas for flavor:

Vigilante
A class based on super-hero tropes. Mostly proto-heroes or "Mystery Men" like Doc Savage. Maybe a splash of Lucha Libre wrestling in there inspired by El Santo.
You strike fear into the hearts of criminals, so your ability to juggle enemies is enhanced with Fear effects.

I like that feel a lot, and I think it can be done without stepping on the toes of the avenger. I'll add this to the running list of concepts in the first post.

Tucker
You use tactics inspired by the legendary Tucker's Kobolds.

Uh, forgive my ignorance, but who's Tucker?

 

[chronoplasm]

Uh, forgive my ignorance, but who's Tucker?

TuckersKobolds.com

 

[chronoplasm]

Also, as far as weapon talents go, we might take a look at various costumed crusaders for inspiration.

Bat Man
Boomerangs and fists

Captain America
Throwing Shield and fists

Doc Savage
Smoke grenades, nonlethal guns with 'mercy bullets',
paralysis-inflicting grappling technique

El Santo
Grappling, fists

Hellboy
A big gun called "The Good Samaritan", and "The Right Hand of Doom", a hammer-like fist


A lot of people seem to think that the Monk should have been the martial controller.
I'm thinking that with the pulp hero archetype, we can create a class that uses a combination of armed and unarmed attacks.
Perhaps there can be a feature that encourages you to keep one hand open, like the Sword Mage, and use the other hand for some kind of ranged or throwing weapon.

 

[Starfox]

My take on a martial controller would be a gadgeteer. Using caltrops, grenades, gas bombs, glue bombs etc to get the work done. Int based. Of course, this doesn't fit all settings.

The barbarian, as presented, is pretty controller-ish in that it gets additional attacks when it downs enemies. It would be possible to design a martial controller as a smash-everything-close rage fighter. Or even as a martial arts sweeping kick type fighter. Based on Str or Dex.

I also quite like the trickster/intimidating (two builds options of the same class I guess) idea, but find it a little implausible to do damage this way. Constantly using just repartee could get tedious. Obviously based on Cha.

I wonder if these ideas can be incorporated as different builds into one class? It seems very difficult to get these three aspects covered by one stat, so the resulting class would suffer heavily from MAD, but it would give us a very wide toolbox. This, in turn, would avoid the danger of the one-trick pony where you stretch credibility by pulling out a new gadget every turn.


Let me try and make a first sketch. Make the class Dex based, with four build options: Str (area combat), Int (gadgets), Cha (Intimdation) and Cha (trickery).

 

[Quickleaf]

With the concept of the "two-fisted pulp hero" MC, it makes sense that we distinguish this from the Avenger as both compete for the "Vigilante Man" trope. Obviously there won't be teleporting and such, but it's something I'm thinking about flavor-wise.

My take on a martial controller would be a gadgeteer. Using caltrops, grenades, gas bombs, glue bombs etc to get the work done. Int based. Of course, this doesn't fit all settings.

Actually this could be modelled by giving the "doc savage/batman" MC the Alchemist feat for free. It doesn't have to be the main component of the character, just like Ritual Casting isn't the main component of the wizard or cleric.

The barbarian, as presented, is pretty controller-ish in that it gets additional attacks when it downs enemies. It would be possible to design a martial controller as a smash-everything-close rage fighter. Or even as a martial arts sweeping kick type fighter. Based on Str or Dex.

I like the idea of the martial controller drawing on Intelligence. There aren't many classes where Intelligence takes center stage besides the Wizard. It models the detective sort of work a Shadow/Doc Savage/Batman would do, and emphasizes that they're not some invincible warrior but a brilliant strategist who knows how to use their surroundings to their advantage.

Let me try and make a first sketch. Make the class Dex based, with four build options: Str (area combat), Int (gadgets), Cha (Intimdation) and Cha (trickery).

That looks like a good start to me! I would say make the primary stat Intelligence and the secondary either Charisma (intimidation/trickery) or Dexterity (area grappling/ranged gadgets).