Daniel D. Fox
Explorer
Deleting, just going to reskin the Ranger. 
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Community designed martial controller
- Thread starter Quickleaf
- Start date
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Here's a thought for a basis for such a class.
The Monstru-Waccan.
Whereas other classes focus on the study and mastery of weapons, spells, devotions, etc. the Monstru-Waccan's area of expertise is monsters, their habits, strengths, weaknesses, tactics, culture, history, and any other knowledge related to defeating or neutralizing them.
I imagine the class being knowledge based, probably primary stat is INT with a couple of builds relying on cha,wis, or whatever. Features could include enhanced monster knowledge rolls, ability to make monster knowledge rolls based on simply seing some 'spoor' of the monster, and then some sort of control feature with a martial fluff to it. The polearm controlling ideas sound like they would work pretty well.
The Monstru-Waccan's exploits would be fluffed as knowing weaknesses in the physiology, armor, weapons, and tactics of the monsters, which they would use to do things like hamstring a monster, hit it with some kind of effect that is especially painful or debilitating to that particular type of monster, etc. So for example they would be very good at tripping the monster or inciting one monster into a rage so that it attacks another monster, that kind of thing. The wis based build would focus more on knowing monster weaknesses and tactics, whereas the cha based one would focus more on monster personality, history, and social aspects.
For example a fluff for a power might be something like:
Using your knowledge of the monster's history you incite it to make an attack against one of its allies instead of your own.
(power details would be something like 1 monster in burst 5, int vs Will; hit, the monster makes an attack against an ally within 2 squares designated by you. The monster is marked by that target until the end of your next turn.)
Higher level powers might entail things like special alchemical bombs that are highly toxic to the given monster type, etc.
At-wills could include debuffing attacks that are fluffed as penetrating the weak spot of the monster's hide/armor, blinding it for a moment, hitting it in a nerve, etc.
Not really well developed mechanics, but it might be kind of cool. Seems like a bit different flavor than any of the existing classes at least, and plausibly a Martial Controller.
The Monstru-Waccan.
Whereas other classes focus on the study and mastery of weapons, spells, devotions, etc. the Monstru-Waccan's area of expertise is monsters, their habits, strengths, weaknesses, tactics, culture, history, and any other knowledge related to defeating or neutralizing them.
I imagine the class being knowledge based, probably primary stat is INT with a couple of builds relying on cha,wis, or whatever. Features could include enhanced monster knowledge rolls, ability to make monster knowledge rolls based on simply seing some 'spoor' of the monster, and then some sort of control feature with a martial fluff to it. The polearm controlling ideas sound like they would work pretty well.
The Monstru-Waccan's exploits would be fluffed as knowing weaknesses in the physiology, armor, weapons, and tactics of the monsters, which they would use to do things like hamstring a monster, hit it with some kind of effect that is especially painful or debilitating to that particular type of monster, etc. So for example they would be very good at tripping the monster or inciting one monster into a rage so that it attacks another monster, that kind of thing. The wis based build would focus more on knowing monster weaknesses and tactics, whereas the cha based one would focus more on monster personality, history, and social aspects.
For example a fluff for a power might be something like:
Using your knowledge of the monster's history you incite it to make an attack against one of its allies instead of your own.
(power details would be something like 1 monster in burst 5, int vs Will; hit, the monster makes an attack against an ally within 2 squares designated by you. The monster is marked by that target until the end of your next turn.)
Higher level powers might entail things like special alchemical bombs that are highly toxic to the given monster type, etc.
At-wills could include debuffing attacks that are fluffed as penetrating the weak spot of the monster's hide/armor, blinding it for a moment, hitting it in a nerve, etc.
Not really well developed mechanics, but it might be kind of cool. Seems like a bit different flavor than any of the existing classes at least, and plausibly a Martial Controller.
I'm glad that other people have been working on this problem, too. I've been working on a Monk homebrew to fill this void. Ignoring Ki, Wizards' oh-so-politically correct term for everything generically Asian, I've been trying to build up the sort of character one might find in an old-school Shaolin movie.
I'm totally with you on this one. I've been making powers with less of an emphasis on AoE damage and more of an emphasis on single or small-group targeted effect infliction. For example:
Low Kick Monk Attack 1
You kick sharply and strike your opponent in the knee, making him limp.
At-Will, Martial, Unarmed
Standard Action Melee unarmed
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. Fortitude
Hit: 1[W] damage and target is slowed until the end of your next turn. Increase damage to 2[W] at 21st level.
and:
Stunning Blow Monk Attack 1
You deliver a blow to the solar plexus, causing your foe to stagger as he gasps in pain.
Encounter, Martial, Unarmed
Standard Action Melee unarmed
Target: One creature
Attack: Wisdom vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Wisdom modifier damage and the opponent
is immobilized until the start of your next turn.
These are really cool, creative ideas for how to get at least some AoE into the mix. I approve.
So yeah, if anyone thinks that I'm on to something, I'd love to share more of what I've got, or chip in my two cents on whatever else is running through here.
I'm totally with you on this one. I've been making powers with less of an emphasis on AoE damage and more of an emphasis on single or small-group targeted effect infliction. For example:
Low Kick Monk Attack 1
You kick sharply and strike your opponent in the knee, making him limp.
At-Will, Martial, Unarmed
Standard Action Melee unarmed
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. Fortitude
Hit: 1[W] damage and target is slowed until the end of your next turn. Increase damage to 2[W] at 21st level.
and:
Stunning Blow Monk Attack 1
You deliver a blow to the solar plexus, causing your foe to stagger as he gasps in pain.
Encounter, Martial, Unarmed
Standard Action Melee unarmed
Target: One creature
Attack: Wisdom vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Wisdom modifier damage and the opponent
is immobilized until the start of your next turn.
These are really cool, creative ideas for how to get at least some AoE into the mix. I approve.
So yeah, if anyone thinks that I'm on to something, I'd love to share more of what I've got, or chip in my two cents on whatever else is running through here.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Well, I certainly think a martial artist type MC would be one good way to flavor it. The class would be pretty consistent with a controller theme. The fundamental trickiness with a martial controller concept is really that in essence if you think about it a defender is basically pretty much a martial controller, they control the enemy by making them stick to the defender. So the real challenge is to bring out the subtle difference between the two roles. It definitely seems to me that the main way to do that has to be either a really significant difference in how the character is described, and/or its powers need to really emphasize the control aspect almost to the exclusion of doing much damage.
The former approach was sort of what the Monstru-Waccan concept was about. The whole feel of the character being as distant from "hitting things and killing them" as it would be possible for a martial character to be. The Shaolin OTOH is definitely fighting, so it probably has to take the opposite approach and be really heavy on the debuffing, forced movement, locking kind of stuff.
This may get pretty tricky at higher levels too, since fighters do tend to add more and more of that sort of stuff as they get into the paragon tier. The Shaolin could help to distinguish itself at those levels perhaps by interesting movement capabilities and other sorts of things like wall-walking and feats of willpower, etc. All good genre stuff.
The former approach was sort of what the Monstru-Waccan concept was about. The whole feel of the character being as distant from "hitting things and killing them" as it would be possible for a martial character to be. The Shaolin OTOH is definitely fighting, so it probably has to take the opposite approach and be really heavy on the debuffing, forced movement, locking kind of stuff.
This may get pretty tricky at higher levels too, since fighters do tend to add more and more of that sort of stuff as they get into the paragon tier. The Shaolin could help to distinguish itself at those levels perhaps by interesting movement capabilities and other sorts of things like wall-walking and feats of willpower, etc. All good genre stuff.
Quickleaf
Legend
Great ideas Kishi and AbdulAlhazred! I especially like the Monstru-Waccan concept, and think it could mesh nicely with the two-fisted vigilante discussed above.
I agree that a MC, especially a melee-based MC, risks treading on the Fighter/Paladin/Swordmage's turf.
One way to differentiate it by giving forced movement rider effects (and different flavor). I took a first stab at this below...
The Oath
You take an oath to pursue your devious foes to the ends of the earth. The Oath of the Hunter is Charisma-based, providing you with the ability to manipulate monster psychology and inspire terror (striker secondary role). The Oath of the Truth Seeker is Wisdom-based, providing you with the ability to gain insight into monsters' weaknesses, enabling allies to do what they do best (defender secondary role).
Oath of the Hunter
When you use forced movement against an enemy it provokes attacks of opportunity. And gain power X.
Oath of the Truth Seeker
When you use forced movement against an enemy it loses any concealment until the end of your next turn. And gain power Y.
I agree that a MC, especially a melee-based MC, risks treading on the Fighter/Paladin/Swordmage's turf.
One way to differentiate it by giving forced movement rider effects (and different flavor). I took a first stab at this below...
The Oath
You take an oath to pursue your devious foes to the ends of the earth. The Oath of the Hunter is Charisma-based, providing you with the ability to manipulate monster psychology and inspire terror (striker secondary role). The Oath of the Truth Seeker is Wisdom-based, providing you with the ability to gain insight into monsters' weaknesses, enabling allies to do what they do best (defender secondary role).
Oath of the Hunter
When you use forced movement against an enemy it provokes attacks of opportunity. And gain power X.
Oath of the Truth Seeker
When you use forced movement against an enemy it loses any concealment until the end of your next turn. And gain power Y.
Quickleaf
Legend
Here are some ways I've been playing with implementing the MC to distinguish its powers from the other roles:
Debuffing: Turning creature features against them, e.g. excessive regeneration restraining/slowing a creature, or an aura growing out of control and effecting its allies.
Many Targets, Low Damage: Turning creatures against their allies, e.g. creating zones/auras based on enemy creatures.
Terrain Maker: Forced movement knocking creatures through objects, Restrained/stunned/immobilized creature become obstacles, making creatures difficult terrain for their allies to move through
Artillery: Pinning fire, e.g. designate X number of adjacent squares to enemy, if they move into/through one of those squares subject to ranged AoO.
Debuffing: Turning creature features against them, e.g. excessive regeneration restraining/slowing a creature, or an aura growing out of control and effecting its allies.
Many Targets, Low Damage: Turning creatures against their allies, e.g. creating zones/auras based on enemy creatures.
Terrain Maker: Forced movement knocking creatures through objects, Restrained/stunned/immobilized creature become obstacles, making creatures difficult terrain for their allies to move through
Artillery: Pinning fire, e.g. designate X number of adjacent squares to enemy, if they move into/through one of those squares subject to ranged AoO.
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AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Cool ideas. I like the idea of a 'ranged OA' zone. That is definitely a different fluff to put on a zone.
Another idea might be 'counter powers', that is you could protect your party from certain monster attacks not by buffing them, but by debuffing the attack power. It could be something like an immediate interrupt that can be triggered when the monster attacks or hits and gives a -2 to-hit, gives an instant save vs any condition applied by the attack, etc. These could be limited to 'burst 5; all allies in burst' or whatever. Effectively it isn't much different from what a paladin can do, but framed in terms of debuffing and with a more 'active' feel to it. Some of these debuffs could also be ones that would apply to a single creature for the rest of the encounter or a turn or with 'save ends'.
A Monstru-Waccan type character could also have some interesting feat based mechanics, like a feat that adds some extra control feature to powers vs certain specific keywords of monster. Like perhaps tacking a "slow (save ends)." onto effects vs creatures that have a given keyword. These would be selectable multiple times for multiple keywords. They could also be feat bonuses.
There could be some good rituals along these lines as well. Like one that would give everyone in your party a temporary, or one use, bonus against a given keyword or species of monster.
Another idea might be 'counter powers', that is you could protect your party from certain monster attacks not by buffing them, but by debuffing the attack power. It could be something like an immediate interrupt that can be triggered when the monster attacks or hits and gives a -2 to-hit, gives an instant save vs any condition applied by the attack, etc. These could be limited to 'burst 5; all allies in burst' or whatever. Effectively it isn't much different from what a paladin can do, but framed in terms of debuffing and with a more 'active' feel to it. Some of these debuffs could also be ones that would apply to a single creature for the rest of the encounter or a turn or with 'save ends'.
A Monstru-Waccan type character could also have some interesting feat based mechanics, like a feat that adds some extra control feature to powers vs certain specific keywords of monster. Like perhaps tacking a "slow (save ends)." onto effects vs creatures that have a given keyword. These would be selectable multiple times for multiple keywords. They could also be feat bonuses.
There could be some good rituals along these lines as well. Like one that would give everyone in your party a temporary, or one use, bonus against a given keyword or species of monster.
Quickleaf
Legend
I would frame this to effect monsters not characters. For example, a daily utility might turn a "save ends" power into an "until the end of your next turn" power.
Sort of reviving the ranger's favored enemy, which I think 4e got rid of because it was circumstantial. I wonder if broadening it to similar creatures would be an ok work-around, e.g. "fire creatures" or "regenerating creatures" or "creatures with auras".
Part of me also wonders if these could be bonus at-will or encounter powers built into the MC's class features. The wizard and druid get extra at-wills, so it seems like a trend for controllers.
I think the "toolbox" of the MC is alchemy. Like rituals it's not something that interacts with their powers. I think a lot of the anti-monster stuff could be incorporated into alchemy. For example, the Witcher CRPG has a potion called "bloodwrack" which makes your blood poisonous for vampires.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Yeah, sort of like reviving the favored enemy mechanic. As you say, it might be too circumstantial, but if it was based on a broad enough categorization, like maybe keywords, then it might work fairly well. Not really a lot different from the way most clerics are much more potent against undead than against the run of general monsters.
You probably could build these things into the classes at-wills. I guess that would be something to look at as well. Both approaches might work, possibly together. Probably the most sensible way to do it would only be apparent when the class is sketched out a bit more firmly.
I don't really have access to any material dealing specifically with Alchemy, so I'm not sure how that differs from rituals exactly. I get the impression it is more focused on making 'stuff' that you then use later in combat and that is depletable. Rituals also have some of the "pay per use" thing going on as well. Given that we're talking about an MC I suppose it makes more sense to skin it as a non-magical sort of mechanism.
Interesting.
Another concept to potentially consider might be something a bit like a spell book. Except in the case of the Monstru-Waccan it would be sort of an 'encyclopedia'. That would be another way to partly get around the circumstantial aspect of the specificity of knowledge regarding monster types. If he has an entry for 'orc' then he can apply some specific bonuses vs orcs. It would seem to fit reasonably well with the Martial power basis and knowledge based flavor of the character's powers.
You probably could build these things into the classes at-wills. I guess that would be something to look at as well. Both approaches might work, possibly together. Probably the most sensible way to do it would only be apparent when the class is sketched out a bit more firmly.
I don't really have access to any material dealing specifically with Alchemy, so I'm not sure how that differs from rituals exactly. I get the impression it is more focused on making 'stuff' that you then use later in combat and that is depletable. Rituals also have some of the "pay per use" thing going on as well. Given that we're talking about an MC I suppose it makes more sense to skin it as a non-magical sort of mechanism.
Interesting.
Another concept to potentially consider might be something a bit like a spell book. Except in the case of the Monstru-Waccan it would be sort of an 'encyclopedia'. That would be another way to partly get around the circumstantial aspect of the specificity of knowledge regarding monster types. If he has an entry for 'orc' then he can apply some specific bonuses vs orcs. It would seem to fit reasonably well with the Martial power basis and knowledge based flavor of the character's powers.
