D&D General Compelling and Differentiated Gameplay For Spellcasters and Martial Classes

[Manbearcat]

That logic is the literal definition of a logical fallacy lol. So maybe not the best thing to base an argument on

If you’d like to continue this derail, you’ll need to give me a paint-by-numbers explanation of how you derived that “the above format is a logical fallacy” without knowing what things x - z, a -d are.

I’m sure you have something in mind, so show me the machinery of your thinking and we can continue to befoul Campbell’s thread with this D&D Culture War sidetrack that has been disrespectfully (yet so predictably) injected into the mix.

 

[Garthanos]

Last but not least, your standard grizzly bear can rip the doors off cars yet people used to hunt them with pointy sticks.

Grizzly Bears arent exactly geniuses nor armored like tanks...

 

[Garthanos]

I don’t know man, a plain ol fighter can wrestle an ankylosaurus to the ground,

but his 20 strength is the same as a typical football player... and grappling is size limited and so on and so forth. "must be no more than one size larger than you" hmmmm how exactly?

In 4e my level 1 fighter could knockdown that monster (AND yes likely get trounced by it anyway) - if he was specializing in that by selecting the exploit that allowed it.

 

[Undrave]

but his 20 strength is the same as a typical football player... and grappling is size limited and so on and so forth. "must be no more than one size larger than you" hmmmm how exactly?

In 4e my level 1 fighter could knockdown that monster (AND yes likely get trounced by it anyway) - if he was specializing in that by selecting the exploit that allowed it.

Clearly, higher level fighters (and Barbarians really) should be able to Shove and Grapple creatures TWO sizes bigger. Would be a fun class feature.

 

[Manbearcat]

@Campbell

Can you depict how you perceive the following in PF2?

1) Scaling of the non-combat conflict engagement between Fighters and Spellcasters? Put another way, as play progresses and the fiction changes accordingly, does it appear like the conceptual space for Fighters to engage in answers when dealing with non-combat obstacles contracting or staying steady (contrast with Spellcasters)?

2) Can you describe what you expect the cognitive space occupied by the martial PC player and the tactical overhead in the engagement of those non-combat obstacles to be (contrast with games/edition as you see relevant)?

 

[Sacrosanct]

If you’d like to continue this derail, you’ll need to give me a paint-by-numbers explanation of how you derived that “the above format is a logical fallacy” without knowing what things x - z, a -d are.

It's the literal definition of a logical fallacy to say what you said: "If you can do a, then you can reasonably do b or c." That's not true at all.

but his 20 strength is the same as a typical football player... and grappling is size limited and so on and so forth. "must be no more than one size larger than you" hmmmm how exactly?

Well, the grapple part wasn't the point. The point was that the fighter is stronger than an ankylosaurus. How is that not superhumanly heroic (along with the other examples I gave that you seemed to ignore)?

 

[Garthanos]

Well, the grapple part wasn't the point.

I think it very much is the point... just as jumping 10 feet is typical for very normal people . The STR number isnt really used except for your bland as hell "I hit it with my sword" oh my how many percent more on to hit ??? = Where as that that wrestling him to the ground could be awesome WHICH is exactly why you said it that way.

 

[Oofta]

Well, the grapple part wasn't the point. The point was that the fighter is stronger than an ankylosaurus. How is that not superhumanly heroic (along with the other examples I gave that you seemed to ignore)?

I would say that the flaw is that the strength score for ankylosaurus is far too low, as it is with most large creatures.

 

[Imaro]

I don’t know man, a plain ol fighter can wrestle an ankylosaurus to the ground, can take multiple direct hits of dragon breath, fall from literally a mile high without so much as losing their breath, and numerous other feats. Knowing that, I don’t know how you can say what you’re arguing. Seems like they are already pretty darn reality bending heroic as is.

There seems to be this repeated argument that “fighters can’t do anything heroic because they can’t do this” while ignoring all the other stuff they can do that certainly is superhuman heroic

Well that's because none of that counts... they have to be heroic in the specific way that a specific poster wants them to be otherwise they're not heroic...

 

[Garthanos]

never mind...