Fingers Boggis
First Post
part of me is cringing at the return of the fate spinner, i hated that class in e3, part of me is intrigued as to what they've done to prevent me from banning it so it never sees a game again
Complete Adventurer is Rogues/Bards book!
- Thread starter atra2
- Start date
No offense taken Najo, but I'm not wrong on this one. I am not suggesting that Wizards put out loss leaders. What I am suggesting is that they keep the consumer in mind when putting out products. Sorry, but I do not buy an argument coming from the industry that says that TSR wasn't charging enough and you shouldn't either. To do so would be pure naivety. What this sounds like is a defensive position taken to justify steep increases and products that are essentially re-packaged as brand new when we have seen them before with other names. Really, you don't honestly believe that Complete Warrior isn't Sword and Fist in a different guise? And why was there a retool of the game when Wizards took over from TSR? Why not just keep on making supplements for 2nd Edition instead of creating a "brand new" set
of rules with a whole lot of books that people will have to buy if they want to play the new game? The answers to these questions are obvious. In short, don't believe the hype!
As for not wanting to play with younger players, my group has three players in the 16-18 range and we are a group of older players. I also have friends that run a gaming group whose only purpose is to teach younger players about role playing games. But I have to say Najo, it's one thing to sell books at 30-40 bucks to adults with disposable income. Maybe even to sell them to kids whose parents can shell out that kind of money. But try that with kids from lower income families where that money makes a big difference. There are people who can not afford that kind of money.
of rules with a whole lot of books that people will have to buy if they want to play the new game? The answers to these questions are obvious. In short, don't believe the hype!
As for not wanting to play with younger players, my group has three players in the 16-18 range and we are a group of older players. I also have friends that run a gaming group whose only purpose is to teach younger players about role playing games. But I have to say Najo, it's one thing to sell books at 30-40 bucks to adults with disposable income. Maybe even to sell them to kids whose parents can shell out that kind of money. But try that with kids from lower income families where that money makes a big difference. There are people who can not afford that kind of money.
Whimsical
Explorer
In case you didn't know, 3e brought back a lot of gamers who ditched D&D a long time ago. There are a lot of people who quit AD&D when 2nd ed. came out that came back because of 3e, and a lot of 2nd ed AD&D gamers who quit that were brought back with 3e. Personally, I only played 2nd ed. because it was the only game and town, and I was desprately trying to find gaming groups that didn't play AD&D. Before 3e came out I was almost there, taking part in a Champions game and a GURPS Fantasy game, but stuck around for the AD&D game because the DM and players were good. But I did not respect the system.
I rolled a "1" on my save for 3e. 2nd ed. needed killin', yer honah.
I don't understand why people believe they "have" to buy anything other than the Player's Handbook to play D&D, or the core three books if you DM D&D? You don't "have" to buy anything else to play D&D. Heck, you don't have to buy anything if you just want to run a roleplaying game. You can download free rulessets off of the web and not spend anything at all. There are options for the gamer on a serious budget. They just aren't going to come from WotC. When I was playing 2nd ed, my DM only used the core three books and the Psionic handbook. That's it. And that was right before 3e came out, with a ton of 2nd ed. product on the market.
WotC is not a charity, and it's not a government agency. They exist, like all other companies, to generate profit. And the way they do that is by producing product that others will value enough to exchange their work ($$$) for WotC work. Not everyone will value their product this much, and that is to be expected. And it doesn't mean that they have to lower their prices.
So, please explain why you "have" to buy a whole lot of books to play D&D? You know, you can still play AD&D with your 2nd ed. books. Heck, there are 1st ed. AD&D groups still playing even now.
I rolled a "1" on my save for 3e. 2nd ed. needed killin', yer honah.
I don't understand why people believe they "have" to buy anything other than the Player's Handbook to play D&D, or the core three books if you DM D&D? You don't "have" to buy anything else to play D&D. Heck, you don't have to buy anything if you just want to run a roleplaying game. You can download free rulessets off of the web and not spend anything at all. There are options for the gamer on a serious budget. They just aren't going to come from WotC. When I was playing 2nd ed, my DM only used the core three books and the Psionic handbook. That's it. And that was right before 3e came out, with a ton of 2nd ed. product on the market.
WotC is not a charity, and it's not a government agency. They exist, like all other companies, to generate profit. And the way they do that is by producing product that others will value enough to exchange their work ($$$) for WotC work. Not everyone will value their product this much, and that is to be expected. And it doesn't mean that they have to lower their prices.
So, please explain why you "have" to buy a whole lot of books to play D&D? You know, you can still play AD&D with your 2nd ed. books. Heck, there are 1st ed. AD&D groups still playing even now.
Dark Psion
First Post
Also, the Master Transmogrifist was cut from the Player's Guide to Faerun and may be in the Complete Arcane.
johnsemlak
First Post
Here's the thread:JPL said:
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=85947&highlight=fourth+complete
I think we're all missing the most important news
We're missing the real scoop, in the spell list:
Defenestrating Sphere
Defenestrate is to "throw out a window".
I have high, high hopes for this spell during barfights.
I vaguely recall a odd spell from the Tome of *something* Knowledge, some thing or another I got off a BBS back in the days, had a Defenestration spell in it, an enchantment that caused the target to jump out the nearest window.
I wonder if I can get that past my DM.
We're missing the real scoop, in the spell list:
Defenestrating Sphere
Defenestrate is to "throw out a window".
I have high, high hopes for this spell during barfights.
I vaguely recall a odd spell from the Tome of *something* Knowledge, some thing or another I got off a BBS back in the days, had a Defenestration spell in it, an enchantment that caused the target to jump out the nearest window.
I wonder if I can get that past my DM.
Lonely Tylenol
First Post
Not to sound elitist or cruel, but...
So when did WotC start to care whether poor kids could play their games? That's like saying that BMW and Mercedes should be concerned that lower income families can't afford their cars. D&D is a luxury item. It's an expensive hobby, and the intent is not to get as many people as possible playing, from as many different backgrounds as possible. The intent is to get those of us who have some disposable income to spend that disposable income on their books and accessories. Whether it's nice or not, Wizards is not in it to help poor kids have fun. They're in it to make money, and you make money by selling expensive books to people who can afford them.
I'm not sure I see how you could argue that people who can't afford to buy WotC books as they're currently priced ought to be able to buy them to play the game. I mean, it's a hobby. It's not like these are groceries or textbooks. We might as well be discussing the economics of yacht racing or rock climbing or hang gliding. Should these hobbies also be made cheaper so that lower income families can afford them? I don't see why. Some things are just expensive, and not everyone gets to do them. I, for example, will probably never go yacht racing. Big loss there, I know, but I'll live. In this case, D&D books are expensive because that's the price people will pay for it. If the hobby is too expensive for some people to get into it, they'll find other hobbies. I find it hard to see how there's some moral imperative to get poor kids into the RPG hobby. RPGs aren't that important. It's just a game. Maybe they'd rather be doing something else anyway.
And even if it's imperative that every boy and girl across the world be given the opportunity to hack and slash with our small community of fantasy adventure enthusiasts, there are a heck of a lot of people willing to sell their 3.0 books real cheap.
It might be nice if WotC lowered their prices or started giving away books to help low income people join the hobby, and I welcome them to do so for philanthropic reasons, but so long as their intention is to make money, it's not going to happen.
edited for clarity and extra comments
So when did WotC start to care whether poor kids could play their games? That's like saying that BMW and Mercedes should be concerned that lower income families can't afford their cars. D&D is a luxury item. It's an expensive hobby, and the intent is not to get as many people as possible playing, from as many different backgrounds as possible. The intent is to get those of us who have some disposable income to spend that disposable income on their books and accessories. Whether it's nice or not, Wizards is not in it to help poor kids have fun. They're in it to make money, and you make money by selling expensive books to people who can afford them.
I'm not sure I see how you could argue that people who can't afford to buy WotC books as they're currently priced ought to be able to buy them to play the game. I mean, it's a hobby. It's not like these are groceries or textbooks. We might as well be discussing the economics of yacht racing or rock climbing or hang gliding. Should these hobbies also be made cheaper so that lower income families can afford them? I don't see why. Some things are just expensive, and not everyone gets to do them. I, for example, will probably never go yacht racing. Big loss there, I know, but I'll live. In this case, D&D books are expensive because that's the price people will pay for it. If the hobby is too expensive for some people to get into it, they'll find other hobbies. I find it hard to see how there's some moral imperative to get poor kids into the RPG hobby. RPGs aren't that important. It's just a game. Maybe they'd rather be doing something else anyway.
And even if it's imperative that every boy and girl across the world be given the opportunity to hack and slash with our small community of fantasy adventure enthusiasts, there are a heck of a lot of people willing to sell their 3.0 books real cheap.
It might be nice if WotC lowered their prices or started giving away books to help low income people join the hobby, and I welcome them to do so for philanthropic reasons, but so long as their intention is to make money, it's not going to happen.
edited for clarity and extra comments
Last edited:
Ranger REG
Explorer
Well, they gotta make money to earn a living, pay their employees and their bills, etc. I mean, I'd be pissed if my own company is giving away for free by absorbing the cost which may means our payroll could be in jeopardy or that management will have to cut downsize in order to stay afloat.
And if I own my own company, I'd rather be the person to earn more money than my own highest-paid employee. It would be ridiculous of me to earn just enough money to maintain a low-rent home and a Yugo.
But that's what people ideally want: take in more money, pay out less money.
And if I own my own company, I'd rather be the person to earn more money than my own highest-paid employee. It would be ridiculous of me to earn just enough money to maintain a low-rent home and a Yugo.
But that's what people ideally want: take in more money, pay out less money.
