Complete Adventurer (merged)

[JPL]

Somone asked about the Exemplar ...

Ooooo, very nice. Good for all sorts of non-traditional characters...a heroic version of the Expert.

 

[iksander]

It looks like the Lyricist is meant for a character that has been multiclassing into 3 different classes, so the evasion sticks...otherwise the class would be to easy to get into with to many benefits.

I think they tried to remedy the hits on BAB (incurred by extreme multiclassing) with a fighters attack progression.

 

[CronoDekar]

I actually kinda like the spellthief. Normally this is the type of thing I'd prefer as a prest (and TBH, before even seeing the class I thought that)... but I don't know, I guess I like it as a core class for some reason. They did a nice job preventing extreme abuse in my opinion, and I've been thinking of ways I could get clever and have fun with it. Fighting a Mind Flayer? Steal its Mind Blast and use it against his cronies. Seems fun, though I'm not sure how useful the class would be.

Regarding the Lyrist, I agree that evasion seems odd as a prereq and might just be a typo, but I suppose I can't be sure. The BAB and the two saves may be a bit much, but I think having BK, music, and both druidic and bardic songs isn't too bad -- particularly since you have to be Lv10 before you can enter it. Seems like an odd prest though.

Now that I look at it again, there is another example that's a rogue/bard/druid, so I guess you do have to have levels in all three. Weird. It's a little too pidegonholed then for my tastes.

 

[Tetsubo]

How does the Wild Shifter differ from the old Shifter PrC? The Shifter is my favorite PrC in the game.

 

[DungeonmasterCal]

Oh, don't get me wrong...I like the Spellthief...I just think it's waaaay too specific to be a base class. But on the other hand, I'm fool for the Soulknife, and the same can be argued of it.

 

[Psion]

One other thing to note with the Fochlucan Lyrist is that it is intended as Bard/Druid multiclassed build. I suspect Evasion should not be one of the prestige class requirements - though the sample build does have Evasion.

I can see that. It would fit more comfortably to me. It seems like 2 classes to qualify is the most I am comfortable with for PrCs.

One thing I really dig about the complete books is the "adaptation" block. It should drive home the sentiment of "play around with these things, folks. Really."

 

[Len]

That said, I am not precisely seeing your argument. You seem to be saying that manyshot or dual strike would not be an "attack action." It clearly seems to be an attack action to me. Neither manyshot nor dual strike define any rules for (frex) whether you suffer an attack of opportunity for using them. They are clearly an exception to the standard rules for attack actions, and there is no reason in any other way to not treat them as attack actions. (Is there actually a ruling that says this?)

The rule is in Table 8-2 in the PHB, and in the wording of the feats. "Attack" is one type of standard action. Not all standard actions are the "Attack" action. Dual Strike and Manyshot are standard actions that are not an Attack action.

There's a much longer explanation in the D&D FAQ regarding Manyshot vs. Shot on the Run, which use the same wording as Dual Strike and Spring Attack.

 

[Remathilis]

Puts on his MT cap...

the FL Would (at 20th) look like this...

Rogue2/Drd4/Brd4/FL10 (assuming rogue is a viable favored class option, otherwise 3/3/4/10)
BAB: +1 (r) +3 (b) +3 (d) +10 (FL) = +17 BAB
Fort: +0 (r) +1 (b) +4 (d) +3 (FL) = +8
Ref: +3 (r) +4 (b) + +1 (d) +7 (FL) = +15
Will: +0 (r) +4 (b) +4 (d) +7 = +15
HD: 2d6 (r) + 4d6 (b) + 4d8 (d) +10d6 (FL).
Average hp (rog first) 81 hp + con
Total Skill Points: 32 (rog 1st) + 8 (r) +24 (b) +16 (d) + 60 (FL) = 140

Spellcasting Brd: 14, Drd 14
Bard Music: as 14th level bard
Bardic Know: 14 + int
Animal Companion: 4th level
Sneak Attack +1d6
Evasion

Ranks Needed to Get into PrC: 48 ranks total, various c.c.
Minimum Level needed to take: 10th (13 ranks in Perform)
Minimum bard levels: 1
Minimum rogue levels: 2
Minimum Drd levels: 1

Honestly; It has the MT complex. Great when your 20th, but UNTIL then you'll be a useless combatant (3 average babs (+7 at 10th), druid/bard armor restrictions (hello leather!), d6/d8 hp, 1d6 SA) a poor arcane caster (4th), and a poor divine caster (4th). You won't even have acess to many of the great bard songs or improved courage, nor will you be wild-shaping into better combat forms. You'll have a 4th level Animal companion (worthless later on). Later, your BAB becomes better and your spells improve to finally catch up some (but not even to the point a MT has). Your BSong gets useable, but your still never gonna wildshape. The Unbound gives you a chain shirt (+4 AC, Lgt) at the cost of hide armor (+3, med) unless you want to suffer ASF for your Bard spells. Your Skill points are equal to a bards after a while, but with a heavy opening investment (7 ranks in 5 skills, 13 in perform)

MHO: Despite looking imposing on paper, a character with this PC is no better off than an MT or EK.

 

[Psion]

The rule is in Table 8-2 in the PHB, and in the wording of the feats. "Attack" is one type of standard action. Not all standard actions are the "Attack" action. Dual Strike and Manyshot are standard actions that are not an Attack action.

There's a much longer explanation in the D&D FAQ regarding Manyshot vs. Shot on the Run, which use the same wording as Dual Strike and Spring Attack.

You must have started your reply regarding this after I edited my post to recognize the FAQ. Or ignored that part of my post.

Yes, I read the FAQ, but from a technical aspect I think it's dubious, as it is not in line with the way D&D rules operate. The rules under attack actions are used for all attacks. Were I to follow the logic the FAQ follows, I would have no formalized means how to resolve a manyshot. The FAQ even admits that there is no formal action type called attack actions. It does state the intent is that they not work together; the proper thing to do would be to state as much in the feat description.

 

[Remathilis]

How does the Wild Shifter differ from the old Shifter PrC? The Shifter is my favorite PrC in the game.

First things First: They have the name wrong in the LJ doc. Its called the MASTER OF MANY FORMS, and specifically states its the retooled shifter in the flavor text...

Req: alterness & endurance feats, wild-shape

BAB Average, Good Fort and Ref Saves

1st: speak normal in any form, communicate with animals of type formed. Imp Wild Shape (humanoids)
2nd: IWS: giant/large
3rd: Fast (move action) WS, IWS: Monster Humanoid
4th: IWS: fey/tiny
5th: IWS: Vermin
6th: IWS: Aberration/Huge
7th: IWS: Plant, Extraordinary WS (take on EX traits in WS)
8th: IWS: Ooze/Dimulative
9th: IWS: Elemental
10th: IWS: Dragon/Gargantuan, Evershift form (gains shapechanger subtype and immune to shapechange magic unless she wishes to be affected)