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Complete Arcane base classes

Drowbane said:
War Mage holds second place here. The Wilder (with powers chosen for such a build) is unrivaled here. A 7th level Wilder can dish out 10d6 +10 Fire(or Cold)balls.... or a 10d6 Ball-lightning with a DC 2 higher.

Wilders are extremely limited however... they rely on Expanded Knowledge to fuel thier powers known.

7th level Wilder does not qualify for EK(Energy Ball), which is a 4th level Power. He'd have to be 9th level to even get EK( some 3rd level power ) thanks to their delayed power level progression.

7th level Wilder could be doing that with line effects, though (Energy Bolt is 3rd level Psi/Wld power).

-- N
 

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satori01 said:
Charm the Night Watch man into letting you in to the treasure vault, and to act normal for 6 days, better hope you do not have to charm anything on the inside, or are far out of town before you do use the Charm Invocation again.l.

As a good general rule, expect a player to play to his character's strengths, not its weaknesses. Rather than some contrived scenario which for some reason requires someone to be charmed for six days on end, imagine a warlock using his powers to fullest effect. For instance, a warlock can walk through a dungeon and use charm monster at every opportunity, every round, against every creature that's susceptable. Not only can, but likely will if that's his one lesser invocation. Now, if you're about to retort about how the warlock can only have one creature under his control at a time, then you're just not putting a lot of effort into playing this scenario out. A charmed creature's trust can easily be exploited to put in a situation where it's easily dispatched.

I wouldn't even say the dungeon is the best place to exploit charming creatures at will. Towns are loaded with humanoids waiting to be exploited endlessly--and a warlock with Charm can endlessly exploit. Again, the one creature limit just is circumventable. Bid your pigeons a good day after you're done with them, or send them off on some pointless errand. When they snap to, what can they do? Take a drug test to see if they've been charmed?
 

Felon said:
I wouldn't even say the dungeon is the best place to exploit charming creatures at will. Towns are loaded with humanoids waiting to be exploited endlessly--and a warlock with Charm can endlessly exploit. Again, the one creature limit just is circumventable. Bid your pigeons a good day after you're done with them, or send them off on some pointless errand. When they snap to, what can they do? Take a drug test to see if they've been charmed?

I would say that said warlock needs to be careful -- a successful save means that someone KNOWS that hostile magic has been used on them, even if they don't know the source. Such a thing would raise the alarm and make life difficult for the warlock and his companion PCs pretty quickly.
 

Felon, again you rail against setting up false scenarios then do it yourself.

Using Charm in a City can have potentially hugely negative consquences. I DM in a version of Ptolus, an urban game that has been played for 2 years now. In Ptolus it is illegal to use Charm magics, or magics that control behavior. Makes logical sense, cause which one of us has not used Charm Person to make great deals with the shop keep.

In most games I have played, cities frown on charm magics.. If it is not illegal it is usually a "burn him as a witch" type response. So your city scenario is exactly the point I made before, better hope you do not have tocharm again, and are either away or safely hidden when the charm wears off because someone is, as Henry said, going to raise the alarm.

Secondly, Charm magics are never that great for groups of monsters, as once you charm one, the others get bonuses to saving throws and combat usually starts. A Sorcerer still has the option though of using enough Charm Person spells to control a band of orcs, not the Warlock.

Moreover, Charm makes the subject Friendly. It considers you one of its dearest friends, it takes your words seriously, but will not act in a self destructive manner. It will follow reasonable courses of action, but as your friend might ask you to help move :) The spell says nothing about forgetting its actions while charmed, or not being aware it was charmed. If the greedy gem merchant, that never gives a discount, just sold you his latest consignment of diamonds for 1/3 the price, you think he wont think something is odd in that, when he has never met you before.

Also what happens if he had promised that consignment to the Local Big Cheese Wizard, the one that turns people to stone, (it is rumored) for displeasing him. Would that not count as a possibly sucicidal action and allow a saving throw. Cities often feature NPC that have more motivational depth than Grimlock Barbarian #6.
 

Nifft said:
7th level Wilder does not qualify for EK(Energy Ball), which is a 4th level Power. He'd have to be 9th level to even get EK( some 3rd level power ) thanks to their delayed power level progression.

7th level Wilder could be doing that with line effects, though (Energy Bolt is 3rd level Psi/Wld power).

-- N

Ahh, silly me. I was thinking of Energy Bolt. :p (and Energy Missile)
 


satori01 said:
Felon, again you rail against setting up false scenarios then do it yourself. Using Charm in a City can have potentially hugely negative consquences. I DM in a version of Ptolus, an urban game that has been played for 2 years now. In Ptolus it is illegal to use Charm magics, or magics that control behavior. Makes logical sense, cause which one of us has not used Charm Person to make great deals with the shop keep.

I'm not proposing a false scenario, I'm just not setting up a scenario in Ptolus, which, by design, is an exceptionally sophisticated magical city. Players won't get away with a lot of stuff in Ptolus that they could in an ordinary city where Joe Blow may not be astute enough to know he's been subjected to an enchantment effect and won't be able to consult a codified set of protocols of how to react. At any rate, this along with the remainder of your post is no longer relevant to a discussion about the warlock or invocations; it's more of a tangent about the effectiveness of charm spells in general.

The charm invocation was provided as a single example used to illustrate a point (I could just as easily have picked another invocation, like Fell Flight). The point was to illustrate a more general misconception with the warlock--namely, that the warlock's invocations only represent spells that a wizard or sorcerer can cast virtually at will anyway. That's true in some cases, but because of the final design decision to go with only a four-tiered Least, Lesser, Greater, Dark scheme, it isn't valid to apply the generalization across-the-board to all invocations. Warlocks only get invocations at 1st, 6th, and 11th, and 16th level. All least invocations certainly aren't inferior to 1st or 2nd-level spells, or equivalent to zero levels spells.
 
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Drowbane said:
hows that? Its a 2nd level power, one that a Wilder can only get with Expanded Knowledge... early as 6th lvl.

D'oh! You are correct. I must have been on crack.

Thanks, -- N
 

Kobold Avenger said:
Has anyone ever tried to make a Wu Jen/ Fighter/ Eldritch Knight with Practised Spellcaster to get the most of their exclusive spell Giant Size?
Not quite the same thing, but the fighter-type in my Epic game has a magic item that allows him to use Giant Size once per day. He's put it to truly spectacular use on a couple of occasions; a Colossal fighter with the right feats can dish out truly obscene amounts of damage using Power Attack and a two-handed weapon. This warrior has dealt upwards of 120 points of damage on one attack, a couple of times, using Giant Size combined with Power Attack and the fact that his sword is Holy and Anarchic (against Lawful Evil opponents of course). At four attacks per round, most opposition doesn't last long against a warrior who can do this.
 

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