Complete Arcane - What's in it!!

[WizarDru]

OTOH, would you think that a feat which doubled (or even give +50%) the spells casts per day by a Sorcerer would not be too much?

It sounds like you don't value the 'cast on the fly' ability as much as I tend to. The wizard suffers from a classic dilemma...."Do I need it, today?" When plenty of prep time is available, the wizard has a distinct advantage. In an unknown situation, he has associated meta-game costs with selecting the right spell at the right time. Will he need that Feather Fall, or will it turn out to be a wasted spell? The sorceror has no such problems...he either has the spell appropriate to the situation or he doesn't.

This becomes more pronounced at higher levels. The sorceror becomes very connected to his chosen role, and the Warlock would be no different. At high levels, combats are won or lost fairly quickly, and even if you have three hundred spells at your disposal, you still only get so many combat actions. Being able to throw an Evard's Black Tentacles every round isn't that impressive, when the other guy is flying, shapechanged into a gold dragon, has 6 mirror images, blurred, has Immunity to Spells running and six more defensive spells...and then he starts throwing down the meteor swarms, maximized empowered sonic fireballs and so forth. Meanwhile, the +5 keen holy greatsword wielding paladin is smiting the bad guy using full power attack while hasted, scoring three crits in his first round. And so on.

The point is that at high level combat, being able to repetitiously shoot off lower level powers isn't all that strong. A 10d6 bolt isn't terribly impressive when the paladin just caused two massive damage saves, and did a total of over 250+ of damage in one round.

41 extra spells over the course of 20 levels? Not that exciting. Unless the DM is extremely stingy with spells, that feat (like, say Toughness) becomes less useful over time. Scribing time is a more significant cost than purchasing or finding the scroll, at high levels. It's a nice feat...but it's hardly a game breaker. Giving a sorceror 2x more slots however, is huge. Sorcerors almost always choose from a very tight list of spells to optimize their concept (enchanter, artillery, etc.), so extra slots is a direct contribution to how stingy they need to be with their spells. I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with extra slots for a sorceror, but 50% more? I think that's too strong, personally.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Actually, I think you're underestimating the value of Delay Spell. That's a potent ability. It's good for stealth, for sneak attacks, for leverage in negotiation, for combat tactics, for hitting a creature hard all at once... Frankly, I don't think it's overpriced at all.

More to the point, it follows the precedent of fireball and delayed blast fireball.

Actually no it just sucks. 1-5 rounds isn't enough time to help much with any of the above, and with a +3 spell level modifier it makes all spells that do damage suck big because the damage cap will be way behind the curve as will save DCs. Someone did a poll on feats during 3e can't rememeber the post names but something like someone rate this feat:delay spell. They did it for almost every feat and delay spell got like 2 out of 10 overall. It had a few people rating it well, but the vast majority of people gave it a 1-2. And the 2s were kind of pity 2s becuase its a cool concept.

 

[Marshall]

This becomes more pronounced at higher levels. The sorceror becomes very connected to his chosen role, and the Warlock would be no different. At high levels, combats are won or lost fairly quickly, and even if you have three hundred spells at your disposal, you still only get so many combat actions. Being able to throw an Evard's Black Tentacles every round isn't that impressive, when the other guy is flying, shapechanged into a gold dragon, has 6 mirror images, blurred, has Immunity to Spells running and six more defensive spells...and then he starts throwing down the meteor swarms, maximized empowered sonic fireballs and so forth.

And the Warlock hits him with a Reaving Dispel and suddenly has all those spells for himself...

The one thing CA did was make it a VERY bad idea to run around with a bunch of spells up. Makes ya wonder why they tinkered with Persistant, one or two times being killed by your own spells will put an end to that idea.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Here's an odd bit: Split Ray is now +2 spell levels, but it no longer splits the damage dealt and you can focus both rays on one target.

Enervation as a 6th level spell that does 2d4 neg levels, or Scorching Ray as a 4th level spell that does 24d6 at 11th caster level. I haven't checked the new ray spells in CA yet.

Suddenly Split Ray is far superior to Empower for ray spells.

That's the way it should be IMO. If it wasn't much better than empower at ray spells you'd just take empower. Without the ability to target the same foe it shouldn't be more than +1 spell level and maybe even not that. Sometimes the designers seem to forget with metamagic that it should be a benefit to apply the feat since it cost you a feat luckly here they didn't.

If its no better than a spell from the level its adjusted to just cast a spell of that level instead of wasting a feat and preparing a weaker spell modified to a new level. Some feats might not give a power boost but give some fairly unique ability but unless its signifigant it shouldn't modify the level.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

And the Warlock hits him with a Reaving Dispel and suddenly has all those spells for himself...

The one thing CA did was make it a VERY bad idea to run around with a bunch of spells up. Makes ya wonder why they tinkered with Persistant, one or two times being killed by your own spells will put an end to that idea.

I'm guessing because they must of done some research that showed most campaigns used non spellcasting mosnters as the primary foe. Me I never had any problems with persistent or long duration spells but in my games dispels fly frequently enough that a persistant spell almost is a wate of a high level spell.

I definetly think they went with overkill in reducing durations and persistent at +6 spell levels it can only apply to 0-3rd level spells and at the earliest for any real spells(1st level) the earliest you can do it is at 13th level. Heck even the better 3e shield isn't worth a 7th level slot, and the 3.5 shield is a joke as a 7th level slot. A couple of the divine spells may be on the weak side at +6 levels but not a joke but I haven't seen persistent since this change initially shown in FR.

I still go back to if they wanted to change it they should of revamped it from the ground up. I'd of made it a +2 spell level feat that bumped up the time category 1 level. from rounds to minutes, minutes to 10 mintues, 10 mintues to hours, hours to a flat 24 hours. And I make this an exception to the rule and allow it to be applied multiple times to the same spell.

 

[qstor]

whats the preqs for Seeker of the Song?

thanks

Mike

 

[Dalamar]

41 extra spells over the course of 20 levels? Not that exciting. Unless the DM is extremely stingy with spells, that feat (like, say Toughness) becomes less useful over time.

So what you are saying, is that it's okay to have a feat that gives you a bare minimum of almost 68,000gp (the cost to buy scrolls of the highest possible level for the extra spells known, not taking into account any costs to scribe said spells into your spellbook, which would rocket the costs up if Boccob's Blessed Book didn't exist) and saves you weeks of scribing time is balanced?

Not that I think accumulating those spells known is that bad in and of itself since it happens gradually instead of all at once, and I know for certain that most of the PC wizards that I'll see in the games I play won't have the feat. But if there isn't a feat that lets sorcerers increase either their spells per day (since spells/day is the sorc's job, while spells known is the wiz's job) significantly, the wizards will have a much more powerful feat to choose.

 

[WizarDru]

So what you are saying, is that it's okay to have a feat that gives you a bare minimum of almost 68,000gp (the cost to buy scrolls of the highest possible level for the extra spells known, not taking into account any costs to scribe said spells into your spellbook, which would rocket the costs up if Boccob's Blessed Book didn't exist) and saves you weeks of scribing time is balanced?

Yes, that's what I'm saying, all right. Especially since you've chosen the highest possible cost, which I don't think is accurate to actual game play. That presupposes a DM who NEVER gives scrolls as treasure to compare against. And when you consider that a 20th level character has something on the odds of 750,000gp of equipment....well, 68,000 gp's worth isn't really all that impressive...especially over 20 levels. Never mind that the wizard subsumes additional cost and vulnerability with this feat. He still has a spellbook, after all. The sorceror risks nothing with his choices: the mage could loose everything.

But if there isn't a feat that lets sorcerers increase either their spells per day (since spells/day is the sorc's job, while spells known is the wiz's job) significantly, the wizards will have a much more powerful feat to choose.

Well, there being inadequate feats for a sorceror is another question altogether. I'm with you on that. But I wasn't arguing for relatively love for one versus the other...merely that the feat isn't as enormously powerful as it sounds. Having more choices per day is less valuable, generally speaking, than having more chances per day. Not drastically less valuable, but less valuable nonetheless.

 

[JoeGKushner]

One thing this feat that gives you 2 extra spells would be really good for is AEG's World's Largest Dungeon. It could make playing a mage a heck of a lot more viable.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I don't know. If you add up the total gain, you end up with about 19,800gp over 20 levels with the bulk of it coming at the highest levels (7,200 in levels 17-20). That's significant, but hardly game-breaking in a game where 20th level characters are expected to have 760,000gp in equipment and other stuff. A feat like Craft Wondrous Item can be expected to save that amount of gold even if you only crafted two good items ever.

The only really significant benefit to the feat is access and I don't think that's too far out of line. Your wizard can only prepare a base of four spells per day per level--maximum. (Which, coincidentally, is what he normally receives). More than that rapidly reaches the realm of diminishing returns.

This feat from today's preview seems TOO GOOD imo...