Complete Divine info?

[Felon]

He's got enough spells, he can probably do that and take up the melee divine caster role.

And from what I've seen, that's what they tend to do. It's pretty effective.

One of the limiters on the FS is the two-stat dependency. I'd been thinking about shafting save DCs, and just taking spells nobody would try and save against...cures, buffs, etc.

Needing two good stats isn't really a huge deal. Most effective warriors need at least two good stats, and clerics often have good Charisma scores anyway to aid in turning. And as you point yourself, an FS who tosses cures and buff spells doesn't need to worry about save DC's anyway.

 

[Felon]

So, it's good of the desiginers to provide a boatload of domains, the choice and differenciation of which depends upon the player; but it is bad of the designers to provide a double boatload of spells, the choice and differenciation of which depends upon the player. You're sounding a bit conflicted here. What am I missing about your position?

Well, I'm nothing if not conflicted, but I was trying to explain that having boatloads of options becomes most meaningful when the system provides boundaries to work within, paths you have to choose. Otherwise it's all too tempting just to take the best of everything, which leads to homogeneous character designs.

At least that's been my experience in gaming. It's why I've had to abandon point-based systems like Hero and GURPS in favor of class-based ones. Classes provide boundaries and paths. Points don't.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Originally Posted by Ankh-Morpork Guard

Except for RPGA, not Revised essentially DOES mean it was dropped.

Now that's a curious remark. A Deepwood Sniper can still have the same prerequisites, still offer the same class features--what about it does WotC need to "pick up"?

WotC does not equal the RPGA. Ankh-Morpork Guard clearly said RPGA.

Are you suggesting that even though a prestige class or feat is unaffected by any of the rules changes in 3.5e, and thus doesn't really need any revision, they have to revise it anyway just show everyone it's still "legal" to play?

In the RPGA run Living Greyhawk that is exactly the case. While not necessarily "revise it", it needs to be republished in currently acceptable books. In time, 3.0 accessories are phased out of legal use by the RPGA. If a PrC is not republished in a 3.5 product that PrC is removed from campaign play.

Part of the philosophy behind this is that the RPGA doesn't wish to require judges, authors and administrator volunteers to own every single product that comes out. There are other legitimate reason as well.

If that's what you think, then suit yourself, but do realize that you basically just made that rule up arbitrarily. I've certainly never heard any official statement from WotC rendering all previous 3e material null and void, nor have they made any commitment to dedicate the Complete series or any other 3.5e products to reprinting every single feat and PrC from past products simply just to show that they haven't been "dropped" (whatever that actually means).

Again, WotC does not equal RPGA. What WotC publishes, the RPGA picks and chooses what to use. By default, the three core books are always "legal". As accessories are published, the RPGA has chosen to allow some of those books for access in RPGA-run campaigns. It started out slowly with including Sword and Fist, then Defenders of the Faith, then on down the line with all five class builder books. Also for author reference was added the Manual of the Planes, Arms and Equipment, Savage Species, and other books. Then the rules changed with the 3.5 revision.

WotC started republishing some old PrCs in the new Complete series, along with new PrCs, but only those in need of revision. The RPGA saw that things would get rapidly out of hand with trying to coordinate PrCs from all of the out-of-circulation prodcuts (that also contained newly out-of-date PrCs) with all the new products... so the RPGA just cut their loses rather than demand its volunteers keep up with the growing chaos.

RPGA Players who grabbed classes outside the core rulebooks now have their characters in limbo if WotC doesn't republish those PrCs. Myself, I have a character who is looking at needing revising (or retiring) as his PrC doesn't look to be on any schedule for updated republishing... he has levels in Ghostwalker. *shrug* But until the day all Complete books are published, the five builder books are still legal... and so is my character.


Regards,
Eric Anondson

 

[Bill Muench]

Now that's a curious remark. A Deepwood Sniper can still have the same prerequisites, still offer the same class features--what about it does WotC need to "pick up"?

Are you suggesting that even though a prestige class or feat is unaffected by any of the rules changes in 3.5e, and thus doesn't really need any revision, they have to revise it anyway just show everyone it's still "legal" to play?

If that's what you think, then suit yourself, but do realize that you basically just made that rule up arbitrarily. I've certainly never heard any official statement from WotC rendering all previous 3e material null and void, nor have they made any commitment to dedicate the Complete series or any other 3.5e products to reprinting every single feat and PrC from past products simply just to show that they haven't been "dropped" (whatever that actually means).

If I'm interpreting your meaning incorrectly, please elaborate. And if I'm not, please elaborate anyway.

Basically, in Living Greyhawk, the campaign coordinators have said that any builder book material that isn't reprinted in a 3.5 source such as the Complete series will be phased out after all the Complete books are released. The idea is that since the builder books are out of print, new players won't have access to that material and they want to keep everyone on a relatively even footing. Sort of like Magic tournament play, IIRC. Obviously a lot of the builder book material doesn't need to be converted to 3.5, and this isn't a conversion issue. It is more a matter of access.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

---snip---
Again, WotC does not equal RPGA. What WotC publishes, the RPGA picks and chooses what to use. By default, the three core books are always "legal". As accessories are published, the RPGA has chosen to allow some of those books for access in RPGA-run campaigns. It started out slowly with including Sword and Fist, then Defenders of the Faith, then on down the line with all five class builder books. Also for author reference was added the Manual of the Planes, Arms and Equipment, Savage Species, and other books. Then the rules changed with the 3.5 revision.

WotC started republishing some old PrCs in the new Complete series, along with new PrCs, but only those in need of revision. The RPGA saw that things would get rapidly out of hand with trying to coordinate PrCs from all of the out-of-circulation prodcuts (that also contained newly out-of-date PrCs) with all the new products... so the RPGA just cut their loses rather than demand its volunteers keep up with the growing chaos.

RPGA Players who grabbed classes outside the core rulebooks now have their characters in limbo if WotC doesn't republish those PrCs. Myself, I have a character who is looking at needing revising (or retiring) as his PrC doesn't look to be on any schedule for updated republishing... he has levels in Ghostwalker. *shrug* But until the day all Complete books are published, the five builder books are still legal... and so is my character.


Regards,
Eric Anondson

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I still use Deepwood Sniper, and TONS of other non-Revised material in my home games. But with RPGA, if it isn't Revised, it isn't official anymore.

 

[Felon]

WotC does not equal the RPGA. Ankh-Morpork Guard clearly said RPGA.

Well, he said it, but the way he said it wasn't clear to me. To wit:

Except for RPGA, not Revised essentially DOES mean it was dropped.

The way that's written equates to the RPGA being the exception the statement that follows, "not revised essentially DOES mean it was dropped". Now that you explain it, I understand that's actually the reverse of his meaning. Of course, had I known how the RPGA worked, his meaning would have been obvious in the first place.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Needing two good stats isn't really a huge deal. Most effective warriors need at least two good stats, and clerics often have good Charisma scores anyway to aid in turning. And as you point yourself, an FS who tosses cures and buff spells doesn't need to worry about save DC's anyway.

Yep. Now, granted, I do have the idea from my groupthink that clerics are primarily self-buffing warrior-types. The favored soul is even more pointed in that direction, since it gets free weapon feats. Also, accepting that everybody you target will make their save anyway lets you free up points from Charisma into your Strength and Constitution.

Brad

 

[the Jester]

Anyone know if CD will have new domains in it? (Hope so!)

 

[Staffan]

Personally, I hope they'll abandon the stupid concept from Complete Warrior where they included an NPC with every prestige class. "Here's the Halfling Outrider class. And here's Sinder Hilltop, a halfling outrider so you can read all the class abilities again!"

 

[Geoff Watson]

Personally, I hope they'll abandon the stupid concept from Complete Warrior where they included an NPC with every prestige class. "Here's the Halfling Outrider class. And here's Sinder Hilltop, a halfling outrider so you can read all the class abilities again!"

I agree. They could have saved dozens of pages for useful stuff by leaving out the example NPCs.

Geoff.