Complete Warrior, anybody got it? What's in it?

[Saeviomagy]

That's quite a generalisation.

Why would "any sensible DM" disallow it?

It's a special PrC ability. It's less grotesque than a Rogue with a Ring of Blinking, given the add-BAB-to-Sense-Motive rule in 3.5.

There's a fight near the end of Kiss of the Dragon where Jet Li repeatedly feints as a free action during a Full Attack.

What is it about feinting as a free action during a Full Attack that makes it automatically anathema to "any sensible DM"?

Yes, the DM always has the right to declare a given free action "unreasonable"... but why this one in particular?

-Hyp.

My guess is the jgsugden is the sort of DM who's outraged that you can make multiple sneak attacks in a round at all, primarily because he doesn't realize that other characters are perfectly capable as putting out as much or more damage than the rogue in question without resorting to a tactic that only works SOME of the time.

Personally, my only issue with the ability is that it's got the potential to be a real pain in the ass - lots and lots of dice rolling for potentially no real benefit.

 

[jgsugden]

My guess is the jgsugden is the sort of DM who's outraged that you can make multiple sneak attacks in a round at all, primarily because he doesn't realize that other characters are perfectly capable as putting out as much or more damage than the rogue in question without resorting to a tactic that only works SOME of the time.

Personally, my only issue with the ability is that it's got the potential to be a real pain in the ass - lots and lots of dice rolling for potentially no real benefit.

Your guess is wrong. Zero points. Thanks for playing, please don't bother to try again.

I am, in fact, a rogue player in an epic campaign. In addition, I play many other campaigns and DM a few myself. I am very much in favor of a rogue being able to use his sneak attack ability whenever it is appropriate.

I do share your issue with dice rolling, but they did take an effort to minimize this by allowing the IB to take 10 on these rolls. That cuts the die rolls in 1/2.

Hypersmurf: First of all, we have way too much time on our hands considering how often we post.

Second, why would any sensible DM not allow multiple feints in a round? The lack of time necessary to fit it all in would be my main reason. You give an example from a movie that I have not seen, so I can not speak to it, but in general, the feint process has a significant time restriction: It requires three things. You must perform the feint, the opponent must process what you have appeared to do and then your opponent must respond and perform an action taking your feint into account. If your opponent doesn't have time to respond, there is no way for you to take advantage of your feint.

That being said, a DM that ignores the 'real world' implications of the D&D abilities might disagree with my analysis, so my statement that any reasonable DM would not allow it was unfair. I take it back. Instead, I'll say that I couldn't see a DM choosing to allow it.

Anyways, I'm done hijacking this thread. I'll let this discussion lie. Let's hear more about this book ...

 

[CRGreathouse]

How has the Devoted Defender changed since S&F?

 

[Shazman]

Same here. Who do we have to talk to in order to get a book of high-level fighter feats?

There is a section on epic feats if that's what you're talking about.

 

[Shazman]

Was anyone else disappointed and confused by the kensai class? It bears absolutely no resemblance to it's 1st edition namesake or the 3rd edition weapon master. Instead, it's a bizarre combo of OA samurai, Master Samurai, and an oathbound from AU with a cleric's BAB and Will as teh only good save.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

There is a section on epic feats if that's what you're talking about.

By high-level I meant between 10th and 20th. Oh well, maybe there'll be another book with enough high-level feats taking up something more than 25% of the book.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I guess something that you *could* do (and in fact I quite like the idea of it) is to ransack the prestige classes for abilities that you could turn into feat chains with high BAB requirements.

For instance, the Dervish could provide

Slashing Blades (pre: BAB 10+, )
Dervish Dance (pre: BAB 12+, Perform (dance) 5+ ranks)
Dance of Death (pre: dervish dance)
Tireless dance (pre: dervish dance)
A thousand Cuts (pre: dance of death)

After all, if the high level prestige class abilities should become available at around 15th-17th level, why not see what ones could be reasonably turned into a feat with a BAB prereq which put them at around that point?

Just an idea.

Cheers

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I guess something that you *could* do (and in fact I quite like the idea of it) is to ransack the prestige classes for abilities that you could turn into feat chains with high BAB requirements.

For instance, the Dervish could provide

Slashing Blades (pre: BAB 10+, )
Dervish Dance (pre: BAB 12+, Perform (dance) 5+ ranks)
Dance of Death (pre: dervish dance)
Tireless dance (pre: dervish dance)
A thousand Cuts (pre: dance of death)

After all, if the high level prestige class abilities should become available at around 15th-17th level, why not see what ones could be reasonably turned into a feat with a BAB prereq which put them at around that point?

Just an idea.

Cheers

I've thought about doing the same thing but I'm way too lazy. The dervish dance is a nice one especially since I always felt there should be some way to pull something like that off, sort of like an enhanced spring attack where you can get your full attack on the move.

 

[Psion]

I guess something that you *could* do (and in fact I quite like the idea of it) is to ransack the prestige classes for abilities that you could turn into feat chains with high BAB requirements.

For instance, the Dervish could provide

Slashing Blades (pre: BAB 10+, )
Dervish Dance (pre: BAB 12+, Perform (dance) 5+ ranks)
Dance of Death (pre: dervish dance)
Tireless dance (pre: dervish dance)
A thousand Cuts (pre: dance of death)

Heh. It sounds like you almost described the way that Master of Arms works (I book I recommend but nobody buys). Most of the class abilities are also presented as feats.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Your guess is wrong. Zero points. Thanks for playing, please don't bother to try again.

Hey - all I really had to run with was your prior comments, which boiled down to "I don't like it so it's silly". Obviously from your explanation, that's not the case, so...

Second, why would any sensible DM not allow multiple feints in a round? The lack of time necessary to fit it all in would be my main reason. You give an example from a movie that I have not seen, so I can not speak to it, but in general, the feint process has a significant time restriction: It requires three things. You must perform the feint, the opponent must process what you have appeared to do and then your opponent must respond and perform an action taking your feint into account. If your opponent doesn't have time to respond, there is no way for you to take advantage of your feint.

Well - the initial feint could well be one which works against all the opponents you threaten. The class IS basically a master of feinting.

The processing and response is entirely up to your opponents, and requires no time on your own part, beyond the ability to take advantage of it - all of which is rolled into the existing system of attacks of opportunity.

If you're talking about taking multiple feinted attacks in a round, then you're viewing the mechanic as far too closely bonded to the explanation of the maneuver - once again we have a master feinter. Is it too much to ask that perhaps he's pulling off a single feint which leaves his opponent so wide open he can take advantage of the opponent's response multiple times?