Complete Warrior, anybody got it? What's in it?

[Hypersmurf]

Still, the general rule is that you may not take free actions during other actions. You must, unless an exception is stated, complete one action before undertaking another. Would you allow a creature with a quickened greater teleport to use it in the middle of a full attack? Or a spellcaster to cast a quickened spell in the middle of a run action?

Sure.

"While taking" another action. "While taking the Run action, I cast Quickened Magic Missile".

Afterall, if they intended for people to be able to use free actions during a full attack action, they wouldn't need to include your highlighted text in the quick draw or rapid reload feats.

It's a benefit of the feat. They're pointing out how it contrasts with the "Normal" section.

Since shooting a bow can use full iterative attacks, a lot of people forget that throwing daggers can't... without Quick Draw. So specifically noting it in the feat description reminds people that they need the feat to get their full allotment of attacks.

Gruntharg swung his longsword, and cursed as the magic blade failed to even scratch the wolfman's hide.

"Use silver!" he called (Free Action - Speak), discarding the useless blade (Free Action - Drop Item) and whipping the silvered handaxe from his belt (Free Action - Quick Draw). Muttering a rapid incantation (Free Action - Quickened True Strike), he slammed the axe unerringly into the lycanthrope's ribs. As the silver seared the wolf's flesh, Gruntharg grinned, and discharged the Magic Missile stored in the weapon, further injuring the beast (Free Action - Spell Storing weapon), before swinging the axe a second time.

Works for me.

-Hyp.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Reaching big-time there. Magic is much more intrinsic to the life of an adventurer than drugs or alcohol are.

You've obviously never adventured with the right company.

 

[Felon]

You've obviously never adventured with the right company.

ROLMAO. Good one!

 

[Hypersmurf]

You've obviously never adventured with the right company.

-Hyp.

 

[jgsugden]

Hypersmurf: I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I see nothing in the rules to support your position, but I see nothing that definitiely excludes it either.

On the other hand, on my side of the argument, they did call them free actions instead of calling them nonactions. There is nothing in the rules to indicate that you can break up one action to perform another action inside of it (in the absence of an explicit exception). The idea that you could seems rather odd.

Out of curiosity, would you allow a sorcerer to cast feather fall (another free action) while casting a metamagiced spell (a full round action)?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Out of curiosity, would you allow a sorcerer to cast feather fall (another free action) while casting a metamagiced spell (a full round action)?

Is there a situation when this might actually come up?

Unlike Running or making a Full Attack, nothing actually changes between the start and end of the spell.

While Running, you might gain or lose a line of effect. While Full Attacking, a creature might be killed, or disarmed, or whatever.

But why would someone need to cast another spell between the start and end of the casting of their metamagicked spell?

-Hyp.

 

[Aaron L]

Actually, I'm pretty sure I read in a book that you can take a free action at any time during a round, including between attacks in a full attack. I forget wear, but I am almost positive I did.

 

[Gez]

Out of curiosity, would you allow a sorcerer to cast feather fall (another free action) while casting a metamagiced spell (a full round action)?

It's a devious faint, since spells are usually thought of as a long string of utterance and gestures that must not be mixed or interrupted.

While between two swing of your arm (two attacks of a full attacks), you may open your hand and reach for another weapon.

That said, personally, since the feather fall is still (only a V component), if the other spell is silent (only a S component, maybe F or M); then, no problems. Well, I would require a Concentration check to success weaving two spells at the same time with only one mind -- not a common excercise -- but provided the check is a success, it works.

There are, of course, some limits to the free actions you may do; but they aren't limited by the fact you are making another action, rather by the circumstances. If a rogue has both his arms stuck inside a small hole, trying to activate or disable some puzzling device, I won't let him quick draw a weapon from his boot. Similarly, although saying one or two words in a free action, I won't let anyone use four or five free actions to speak in a round.

It's a question of general common sense. Could the free action be performed without cancelling the main action?

 

[jgsugden]

Is there a situation when this might actually come up?

Unlike Running or making a Full Attack, nothing actually changes between the start and end of the spell.

While Running, you might gain or lose a line of effect. While Full Attacking, a creature might be killed, or disarmed, or whatever.

But why would someone need to cast another spell between the start and end of the casting of their metamagicked spell?

-Hyp.

A situation? For feather fall it is unlikely, but for other spells that have a casting time of 1 free action, perhaps it will be more likely to make sense.

And if nothing changes between the time you start and end a spell, you're doing it wrong. At the end of the spell, a spell effect occurs which usually has some effect on an environment. That effect was not there before the casting. It will be there after the casting.

As for changes before the spell casting begins and the time during which the spell is cast, the declaration of readied actions by others can disrupt these.

As a rather contrived, but possible, example: You want to cast an area dispel magic to remove the magical structure that you and an enemy is standing upon. You think your opponent (an archer) has readied an action, but you're not sure what it is. One possibility is that your opponent is readied to disrupt your next spell. Another possibility is that the enemy has readied an action to disrupt a spell after you destroy the structure (he knows that you know feather fall and is assuming that the falling damage will be worse for you than him.) If you cast the feather fall before the dispel magic, he might disrupt it and force you to either fall with him or no destroy the structure. If you cast it after the dispel magic, he might disrupt it and send you falling to your death. If you cast it *during* the casting of the dispel magic, he'd be less likely to disrupt it, though a very specific readied action might succeed if he knows enough about spellcasting.

In the end, it doesn't matter. There is one sentence which does clearly govern this situation in my games: The DM puts reasonable limits on what you can really do for free. With regards to the free action feint (the source of our discussion), any sensible DM would not allow it to be used repeatedly in a round, so this clause can be used by a sensible DM to close that hole.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The DM puts reasonable limits on what you can really do for free. With regards to the free action feint (the source of our discussion), any sensible DM would not allow it to be used repeatedly in a round, so this clause can be used by a sensible DM to close that hole.

That's quite a generalisation.

Why would "any sensible DM" disallow it?

It's a special PrC ability. It's less grotesque than a Rogue with a Ring of Blinking, given the add-BAB-to-Sense-Motive rule in 3.5.

There's a fight near the end of Kiss of the Dragon where Jet Li repeatedly feints as a free action during a Full Attack.

What is it about feinting as a free action during a Full Attack that makes it automatically anathema to "any sensible DM"?

Yes, the DM always has the right to declare a given free action "unreasonable"... but why this one in particular?

-Hyp.