D&D 4E Completed 4e Druid (Updated 7/11, New Items; More Versatile)

[malcolm_n]

I am running a 3.5 Forgotten Realms game. We are discussing converting it to 4th. One of the players is playing a druid and he was not happy when 4th came out without a druid. I will be giving him your druid to look at and I anticipate converting the game to 4th within the next couple of weeks. I will give it a couple of sessions to gameplay to see how things go and report back to you... looking at the end of July or beginning of August.

A game I am playing in converted to 4th two weeks ago and we are liking it so I don't think my players will have any problems...

Is there anyone working on a barbarian??? I have a player in my game currently running a barbarian... It would be nice for him to continue with one even though he is willing to play another race and class...

Tks for all the awesome work everyone is doing on this site.

Give me a quick overview of the barbarian's build, feats, level, etc. I can throw something (if not a whole class) together real quick for you.

Upon completing the druid, I've been working on a project I'll probably post soon enough. It's a comparison tool that utilizes Excel for people building classes. You select the type and level of power (defender encounter 13 for example) and it gives you a list of options based on other similar powers. It also takes into consideration if you're building a hybrid and pegs the powers down a level grade (13 to 7 for example).

 

[generalhenry]

Is there anyone working on a barbarian???

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=233631

 

[malcolm_n]

Bumping; gonna come up with some druid friendly items

 

[HugeOgre]

First off let me congratulate you on the effort that went in to making this. Its obviously a very difficult concept to fix, as evidenced by the lack of hybrids (of any kind) in the original PHB.

I am recreating a story I originally started in 3.5 that includes a PC that is a druid, so I was excited to see the conversion here. In trying to mirror the character I had before I chose a rites-focused druid. When I got to the point where I picked the extra encounter power though I realized there are only two non-wild encounter powers anyway. Am I missing something? Misinterpreting something? What additional encounter power would I take?

Also, as a rites-focused druid I have 2 at wills that I can use without shifting into my weaker wildshape form (which I at 1d4+STR I cant imagine Id EVER do) and both are against Fort (making me very ineffective against Brutes with high CON and STR scores)

 

[malcolm_n]

First off let me congratulate you on the effort that went in to making this. Its obviously a very difficult concept to fix, as evidenced by the lack of hybrids (of any kind) in the original PHB.

I am recreating a story I originally started in 3.5 that includes a PC that is a druid, so I was excited to see the conversion here. In trying to mirror the character I had before I chose a rites-focused druid. When I got to the point where I picked the extra encounter power though I realized there are only two non-wild encounter powers anyway. Am I missing something? Misinterpreting something? What additional encounter power would I take?

Also, as a rites-focused druid I have 2 at wills that I can use without shifting into my weaker wildshape form (which I at 1d4+STR I cant imagine Id EVER do) and both are against Fort (making me very ineffective against Brutes with high CON and STR scores)

Wild shape is more utility and last resort than anything with a rites focused druid. As to the Rites focus itself, all characters only get one encounter power of their choice at first level. The rites focused druid gets 2. You have a good point on them targeting Fortitude specifically, but later spells target different defenses as well. Yes, the rites druid won't be as good at striking brutes at level 1, so he may be better leaving them to the wizard or warlock while he picks off the skirmishers and leaders. I'll look to come up with a couple non-fortitude powers for level 1 and post them along with the magic items I've been working on soon.

 

[Phasics]

Your option isn't bad; but it is complicated. Yes, as written, the abilities are a little more narrow, but that's because of balancing. Bear in mind that you can be a defensive focused druid and take offensive attacks for more damage output; and vice versa. How would your suggestion play toward the powers with benefits for having chosen one path over the other?

Fair point.

I actually have another question may have already been asked in regards to size.

If you base size is small how does that affect wild shape and it feat progression ? or doesn't it i.e. small wildshapes into a medium creature as base ? However if small goes to small as base .......

 

[pyrogod]

I like the class overall, and the formatting is very nice.

A couple comments based on my first reading:

- Goodberries is an awesome concept with a less than ideal implementation. At level 2 when you take it, you can heal, with perfect stats, up to 5 hit points for a cost of 1 standard action and 5 minor actions. At level 30 it can heal close to 100, but at the cost of 1 standard action and 9 minor actions. I would strongly consider making this scale in a x + yz method, like 5 hit points + 1/2 level, or something like that.

- Giant Vermin seems to imply the vermin can be killed, but it does not give defensive stats.

- Go for the eyes seems a bit much, as I would say most monster encounters can't reasonably be counted on to have a healer, which means it is a permanent blind. And it is a two-part condition, so even with a healer, it will take a while. I might suggest changing to a blind (save ends) with no conditional.

- The druid seems very versatile, with great defender, striker, controller, and leader abilities. Depending on preferences, they might be a tad too good. I can't say this for sure without a true playtest though.

 

[malcolm_n]

I like the class overall, and the formatting is very nice.

A couple comments based on my first reading:

1- Goodberries is an awesome concept with a less than ideal implementation. At level 2 when you take it, you can heal, with perfect stats, up to 5 hit points for a cost of 1 standard action and 5 minor actions. At level 30 it can heal close to 100, but at the cost of 1 standard action and 9 minor actions. I would strongly consider making this scale in a x + yz method, like 5 hit points + 1/2 level, or something like that.

2- Giant Vermin seems to imply the vermin can be killed, but it does not give defensive stats.

3- Go for the eyes seems a bit much, as I would say most monster encounters can't reasonably be counted on to have a healer, which means it is a permanent blind. And it is a two-part condition, so even with a healer, it will take a while. I might suggest changing to a blind (save ends) with no conditional.

4- The druid seems very versatile, with great defender, striker, controller, and leader abilities. Depending on preferences, they might be a tad too good. I can't say this for sure without a true playtest though.

1- Awesome. Thank you for pulling out the max potential on goodberry , so a dwarf demigod with 20 Wis starting can get up to +9 mod = 9 berries Assuming the character takes and 15 hp each as a minor action. If his con was also 28 at that point and he took defensive focus, he'd have 232 HP with healing surges granting him +58 HP apiece as a minor action for a second wind. It takes 4 rounds of minor actions, or 1 dedicated round and 1 minor action to heal 60 hp with goodberries. I think that'd be a decent trade. Maybe I misunderstand and you say it's weak? idk, free heals without need of the cleric is pretty good. and a standard hit from a creature of that level will deal an average 28 points damage, give or take ~10 for role. So, there are both my arguments for the power level of goodberry being high vs. low.

2- Per the PHB (or maybe dmg), if a conjuration can be attacked, it uses your defenses unless otherwise specified.

3- Good point on Go for the Eyes. It was an early mechanic I'd played with for the druid that I never changed by final cut. Consider it changed when I update next to include items and a few powers. Question though, isn't a second wind considered a heal, and don't monsters get them?

4- IDK how much of a controller or leader he is. At lower levels I went for basic I tank or I attack powers on all three fronts with a notable drop in power for anything that didn't fit (like goodberry being about half the value of a cleric's heal but spread out to several people). By about 15 I started taking Warlock, Rogue, and Fighter powers, reflavoring and pushing them up a peg (ie level 13 vs. 17 for the druid). Any leader or controllerish powers at that point are strictly within the bounds of those three classes. Let me know, though, if you find differently.

THANK YOU again for the very well put feedback.

 

[Eyada]

First, thanks for putting forth all the work required to design this. Over all, I really like what you've created. I especially like the caster-Druid. I'm currently preparing to run your Druid in 2 different campaigns, so soon I'll have some (hopefully) helpful feedback.

However, I have one complaint, which I hope simply stems from a misunderstanding on my part. Wild Shape states that your gear melds into your new form, effectively becoming non-functional, except for "magical enhancement bonuses and properties". As far as I can tell, this cripples the Druid in a way that the bonuses from Wild Shaping do not compensate for. Was it intentional that Wild Shaping prevents the Druid from gaining that critical +2/+3 Proficiency bonus from wielding a weapon when making attacks vs AC? It seems like a melee "Shifter" Druid will always lag significantly behind other characters because Wild Shape prevents him from benefiting from weapon Proficiency bonuses. The +1 bonus to attacks while in Offensive form doesn't offset this handicap --a problem that is worsened when one sees how pitifully low an AC any Druid will have while in Offensive Form.

My primary character is a "Tank" Druid (Defensive Focus), and his fighting abilities at level 1 are, to say the least, unimpressive. As the party "Tank", he will never be able to afford to choose Offensive Form for any battle, due to the fact that he would have a pitifully low AC, coming in at a mere 13 (thanks to a high Dex). So, he must always choose Defensive form. This fixes his AC problem somewhat (sets him at 19 AC), but does nothing to help him hit foes --a task that is nearly impossible when using abilities that target AC. A comparable 1st level Fighter has +6/+7/+8 to attacks vs AC; while a Druid only has +3/+4/+5. This frustratingly low attack bonus results in Tear (Str vs Fort) being the Druid's only viable attack option, as attacking Fort helps alleviate the situation slightly against certain enemies.

Basically, a 1st level "Tank" Druid will have 19 AC, and +3/+4 to attacks, with a d6 weapon damage. A 1st level "Tank" Fighter will have 20 AC, +6/+7 to attacks, and a d8 weapon damage, and far more abilities that make him "sticky".

Am I misunderstanding Wild Shape, or was it intended to weaken the Druid so severely? What bonus does Wild Shape give the Druid that makes up for the harsh penalties associated with using it? (No AC bonus from armor or shields, no Proficiency bonus from weapons, no activated abilities from magic items, no ability to make ranged attacks without having to forsake your Wild Shape for the rest of the Encounter, difficulty communicating, and a "cooldown" of several minutes --a Short Rest--, during which a Wild Shape-focused Druid is not battle-ready.)

 

[pyrogod]

1- Awesome. Thank you for pulling out the max potential on goodberry , so a dwarf demigod with 20 Wis starting can get up to +9 mod = 9 berries Assuming the character takes and 15 hp each as a minor action. If his con was also 28 at that point and he took defensive focus, he'd have 232 HP with healing surges granting him +58 HP apiece as a minor action for a second wind. It takes 4 rounds of minor actions, or 1 dedicated round and 1 minor action to heal 60 hp with goodberries. I think that'd be a decent trade. Maybe I misunderstand and you say it's weak? idk, free heals without need of the cleric is pretty good. and a standard hit from a creature of that level will deal an average 28 points damage, give or take ~10 for role. So, there are both my arguments for the power level of goodberry being high vs. low.

My apologies for the lack of clarity. I feel it is too weak at level 2, as 1/2 level equals 1, and 1 hp isn't worth spending a minor action on. I think it scales pretty well at 30, as druids aren't leaders and it is additional healing on top of other abilities and equipment. If you change it to 3 + 1/2 level, then it's good at level 1 and good, but not too good, at level 30.

At 3 + 1/2 level with a druid of +4 ability, you would get a total of 16 hit points healed with a daily ability, which is good, but fair.

2- Per the PHB (or maybe dmg), if a conjuration can be attacked, it uses your defenses unless otherwise specified.

Ah. I did not recall that rule. Thanks for the information.

3- Good point on Go for the Eyes. It was an early mechanic I'd played with for the druid that I never changed by final cut. Consider it changed when I update next to include items and a few powers. Question though, isn't a second wind considered a heal, and don't monsters get them?

Monsters get healing surges (1 at heroic, +1 per tier), but have no way to use them unless otherwise specified. From my recollection, healing among monsters is fairly rare.

4- IDK how much of a controller or leader he is. At lower levels I went for basic I tank or I attack powers on all three fronts with a notable drop in power for anything that didn't fit (like goodberry being about half the value of a cleric's heal but spread out to several people). By about 15 I started taking Warlock, Rogue, and Fighter powers, reflavoring and pushing them up a peg (ie level 13 vs. 17 for the druid). Any leader or controllerish powers at that point are strictly within the bounds of those three classes. Let me know, though, if you find differently.

THANK YOU again for the very well put feedback.

I was more thinking of Vigor (level 16) and Call Storm (level 13. Burst 6 within 10 is absolutely huge. The range isn't much to write home about, but burst 6 is bigger than almost all wizard spells). But, on this regard, I would only suggest it is something to be looked into at this point. I think some flexibility on roles could be a good thing in many instances.

Though we don't want the druid to steal the wizard's thunder (pun intentional).