Complicated maps

RFisher said:
That's the thing, though. As soon as you say that, doesn't some corner of your brain start coming up with some unusual scenario that would make such a thing plausible?

Maybe that's just me.

No, I agree... as soon as I read that comment I started thinking of scenarios for that dungeon... Some sort of Lovecraftian design with terrible creatures hiding in the shadows perhaps...

I do want to thank everyone who posted on this thread, you've actually given me some ideas on how to better describe rooms/descriptions in upcoming campaigns. :)
 

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I would not use the first map, but the second map is great.

All you need to do is describe as you go along and just draw a room on the battlemap as needed.
 

The important thing about a map is not how complex it is, but how suitable it is for the setting and the purpose. A map of a natural limestone cavern, for example, is necessarily extremely complex; if it isn't, you don't have the sense of being in a natural space.

In the absence of one of those players who takes Profession: Surveyor and insists on lugging theodolites and levels around, the DM's job is not to enable accurate and precise map drawing, but to give the players a realistic sense of what their characters experience. As long as you bear in mind the limitations of the light sources, normal sight distance, and the special abilities of the party members (such as dwarfen stonesense), no map that is laid out along logical principles should be particularly tough to describe in play. It is important (as I learned the first time I ran a module - Sunless Citadel, obviously inspired by a trip to Winchester House!) to trace out routes through a map and make sure that they gibe with the setting's premise. Would the king/mad wizard/frontier baron/Peloran monks who built the structure have found that the map features suited their purposes? Do caverns form in this way? Then you're set. Usually when setting up a battle mat you don't have to put in every little irregularity, just enough structural features for the players to see their strategic options within a limited space.

For the players trying to stay oriented, there's nothing wrong with a schematic map composed primarily of labels joined by lines and squiggles on occasions when straightforward grid mapping becomes impractical. Turn over the mapping chores to the grognard with the text adventure experience at the table, and you'll find that it works fine.

BTW (archeology geek thread drift warning): Zigzag patterns incised on stone are among the most common and ancient motifs in human art. When I say ancient, I'm talking the Pleistocene - Egypt, eat your heart out. Nobody knows what they mean, but an archeologist told me, half-seriously, that he pictured people using these stones in the same way that modern people use maps drawn on napkins. These maps are not intended as precise depictions of the terrain, but as a mneumonic for verbal directions - "Okay, you go down here past the second stop sign and turn left, then right again at the pig sign and go on for a ways until you get to the bank of mailboxes and it's the second driveway past that on the opposite side of the road. If you get to the creek, you've gone too far."

PC maps are far more likely to resemble napkin (or incised stone) maps than they are grid reference maps.
 

Vorput said:
Do any DMs use maps like this? If so, how in the world do you describe to your players what they're seeing?
I used to use maps like this - about 20 years ago when I thought maps like this were fun.

In the present though, I think they're a major PITA. I'm rarely using dungeons any more and if I do they're pretty small and either easy to describe or (if they're cavern-style) I am doing the drawing.

I've also used cut-out rooms with great success - both 20 years ago AND in the present ;)
 


Heh, I remember that thread... everyone just started yelling at Quasqueton cause he wouldn't say who made those maps Who did anyway?
Rob Kuntz drew those maps in the other thread.

Those look remarkably like maps from the B series modules. Quasqueton and The Caves of Chaos.
They are neither. Not even close, to my eye.

For my own answer to the OP question:

I would have no problem with the using the first map. The layout is fine with me, but I really hate the 3D art for dungeon maps. Simple flat, black and white, or the old fashioned blue would be best (most functional) for me.

I would not use the second map.
"This is part of a maze of twisty little passages, all alike. A skeleton, probably the remains of a luckless adventurer, lies here."
This is a good way to handle it. But I wouldn't want so much of the map to be covered in this kind of thing. One or two such in a dungeon is fine, but most of the complex: yuck.

Quasqueton
 


Vorput said:
Heh, I remember that thread... everyone just started yelling at Quasqueton cause he wouldn't say who made those maps :p Who did anyway?

Rob Kuntz, co-DM with Gygax of the original Greyhawk campaign. The maps are original levels of Castle Greyhawk :D
 

Dross said:
One way to handle this is that the DM becomes the default party mapper. Use a a piece of paper and trace the map out as the players explore, then show them what they see.

Player could easily create a trailing map (just trace a singe line/path, no details), or they could also map it via descriptions: instead of drawing the map, write out the action: "left turn, straight 90', left turn, 20' wide for 40' ending in T, took right side of T, 10' wide for 200' with alcoves alternating and statues in each alcove" etc., etc. We did this while exploring the upper works of Castle El Raja Key at Lake Geneva Con a few weekends ago, and you can see some other map samples from our explorations of Paul Jaquays' Caverns of Thracia on our group's site @ http://members.cox.net/caverns_of_thracia/index.htm

If playing those levels, I certainly wouldn't bother trying to map the level accurately, especially if our PCs were being pursued, were under time constrains, the level had lots of WM, etc.

Dross said:
It does not need to be exact, only good enough not to mislead the players. Not every variation in tunnel width needs to be exact for the party, it's used to get in, out and from A to B. If dimensions become important well the DM has that info as needed.

Similarly, the players' maps don't need to be exact, they just have to be good enough to get back out they way the came in :D
 
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