Saeviomagy
Adventurer
I still think that's lowballing level 1 spells.
D&D 5E Comprehend Languages and "literal" meaning
- Thread starter seebs
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I still think that's lowballing level 1 spells.
Macv12
First Post
I've had times where I can't remember what language I had a conversation in, or what language I heard just minutes ago, but I remember the meaning of what was said. I imagine Comprehend Languages would work similarly: you understand what was said as if you spoke that language, but you don't hear it in any specific language, necessarily.
I don't know Chinese, but in Japanese, there are a number of stock phrases used in various situations, similar in concept to the way "thank you" or "nice to meet you" are used. There are phrases for leaving the house, finishing a meal, and generally endearing yourself to the listener when receiving a favor (which is particularly hard to translate), etc. The literal meanings of most of these would be nonsense to a non-speaker, but they're perfectly intuitive once you know them and any Japanese speaker would know what they mean. I imagine that with Comprehend Languages, you would understand that intuitive meaning, but be hard-pressed to explain what was said to anyone else.
As for the importance of "literal meaning," I think this would mean you understand what would be clearly understood by a native speaker of the language, but you don't pick up on double entendre, code, or other meta-level "meaning" that was part of the speech but not the regular meaning of those words.
I don't know Chinese, but in Japanese, there are a number of stock phrases used in various situations, similar in concept to the way "thank you" or "nice to meet you" are used. There are phrases for leaving the house, finishing a meal, and generally endearing yourself to the listener when receiving a favor (which is particularly hard to translate), etc. The literal meanings of most of these would be nonsense to a non-speaker, but they're perfectly intuitive once you know them and any Japanese speaker would know what they mean. I imagine that with Comprehend Languages, you would understand that intuitive meaning, but be hard-pressed to explain what was said to anyone else.
As for the importance of "literal meaning," I think this would mean you understand what would be clearly understood by a native speaker of the language, but you don't pick up on double entendre, code, or other meta-level "meaning" that was part of the speech but not the regular meaning of those words.
Sword of Spirit
Legend
Count me with those who think it's more interesting to err on the side of literal being less informative than true meaning. The tongues spell exists for good solid translation. It's more fun if the lower level comprehend languages requires more guesswork and can lead to confusion than it's higher level sibling.
In Thailand they say "Have you eaten?" as a polite greeting. They look a little confused at you when you reply about how you enjoyed your breakfast. You can see how it is a polite thing to ask and how it could have become a greeting, its lovely really, but it is pretty confusing not knowing why everybody is asking you that. They even ask as you "Have you eaten?" when you are clearly walking out of a restaurant.
In Australia, some sections of the community will say "get f****d" to mean "oh, really? wow". Heck the Australia PM told the Indonesian PM that he "did not want to play the part of the foolish homosexual" which was an interesting translation of "we don't want to play silly-buggers over this". I guess it is one interpretation of a factual translation, the Australian PM never stopped to think about how it is an odd thing to say outside of his country, it certainly confused the Indonesian PM.
I tend to sprinkle things like those into my translations from language spells. To me Comprehend Language is to language proficiency what Knock is to lock-pick proficiency.
In Australia, some sections of the community will say "get f****d" to mean "oh, really? wow". Heck the Australia PM told the Indonesian PM that he "did not want to play the part of the foolish homosexual" which was an interesting translation of "we don't want to play silly-buggers over this". I guess it is one interpretation of a factual translation, the Australian PM never stopped to think about how it is an odd thing to say outside of his country, it certainly confused the Indonesian PM.
I tend to sprinkle things like those into my translations from language spells. To me Comprehend Language is to language proficiency what Knock is to lock-pick proficiency.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
Tongues lets you reply. Comprehend languages is only one way.
And count me as a person for whom playing semantics with the DM is not going to be an enjoyable experience. You want to reward your players for listening in to conversations and attempting to engage with the world in non-violent ways, not punish them.
Sword of Spirit
Legend
I can see where you're coming from, but I find language barriers to potentially be very fun. So much so that I've basically taken "Common" away from most creatures by default. It's a trade language that PCs, merchants, travelers, nobles and such probably speak. But your average orc or elf doesn't. Even your average human commoner only speaks it if "Common" happens to be derived from their native tongue. Otherwise they speak a different native human tongue. So if you are dealing with a tribe of goblins, maybe the leader and/or his priest speaks Common, and the rest of them just speak Goblin. You visit a human village off the beaten path, and the only people speaking Common are likely to be the innkeeper and staff, and perhaps someone who used to live elsewhere.
Since languages can be learned during downtime, it gives players an actual incentive to do so, and let's them feel that their choice of language means more than just allowing them to communicate "in code" with some party members by virtue of both speaking Aquan.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
And that can be fun, but you're not suggesting that the PCs who are proficient in a language 'misunderstand' on a regular basis, which seems like what some people on this thread are espousing for comprehend languages.
crashtestdummy
First Post
I wouldn't say that the spell will cause misunderstandings on a regular basis, but I would suggest that it's open to misunderstandings.
One example I was thinking of was in respect to the written copy of a prophecy. Prophecies are, by their nature, prone to misinterpretation. There are a lot of decent fantasy novels out there where there was a prophecy whose twist interpretation was the key to the story. I don't believe Comprehend Languages should give the user the correct interpretation but should, instead, give the literal interpretation and let the players work their way through the possibilities.
I wouldn't want the DM to use the spell to deliberately and regularly mislead the players, but the DM should reserve the right to allow the players to misinterpret things themselves -- the spell shouldn't completely eliminate that possibility.
Just my views. It can be a really useful spell, but it shouldn't be perfect.
One example I was thinking of was in respect to the written copy of a prophecy. Prophecies are, by their nature, prone to misinterpretation. There are a lot of decent fantasy novels out there where there was a prophecy whose twist interpretation was the key to the story. I don't believe Comprehend Languages should give the user the correct interpretation but should, instead, give the literal interpretation and let the players work their way through the possibilities.
I wouldn't want the DM to use the spell to deliberately and regularly mislead the players, but the DM should reserve the right to allow the players to misinterpret things themselves -- the spell shouldn't completely eliminate that possibility.
Just my views. It can be a really useful spell, but it shouldn't be perfect.
rollingForInit
First Post
Tongues also lacks the "literal meaning" part of the description, which leads me to believe that that part must be important. Why else would it be in the description of one translation spell but not the other?
In my campaign, Comprehend Languages will accurately translate anything that the caster could say in their native language (or any languages they speak) but will only give vague notions about concepts which are foreign or which other languages don't have words for. My PCs spend a lot of time poking around in the ruins of a highly magically-advanced civilization of vanished elder beings. They can understand the inscriptions on their statuary just fine but they only get a little out of their magical theories and instruction manuals - just enough to give them interesting puzzles and such. I liken it to someone trying to read a really dry, complicated, jargon-filled technical manual or advanced mathematics textbook written for someone with way more training than you have - a lot of the words make sense but the critical concepts are gibberish.
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