Computers beat up my role player

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'd say CRPGs are RPGs, but they are 2nd rate ones. Unless you're in a LAN with your buddies, not even the best of them truly capture the experience.

 

[Raven Crowking]

The tricycle is sold as an automobile.

A bit more on this.

As I said above, many words and terms evolve, and gain additional meanings over time. Certainly, there is a concerted effort by the designers of certain types of games to market them by using the RPG term as a means of reaching an existing market.

As the term is now used, I would agree that a secondary definition of "role-playing game" may now exist which, in fact, denotes a simulation of the original definition.

What I will not agree to is that the secondary definition is therefore the same thing as the original definition. Attempts to conflate the two are disingenous, and lead to errors in reasoning, just as attempt to conflate "roleplaying", "role assumption", and "play acting" do.

Within the context of the statement that roleplaying has declined, earlier on this thread, the original definition is the only relevant definition. Attempts to use secondary definitions are spurious at best.

Many words have alternate definitions, some of which are mutually exclusive, and some of which can fall under an overarching meta-defintion. Surely, both definitions here are "adventure simulation games" as both the automobile and tricycle are "wheeled vehicles". That doesn't mean that they are the same thing.

Indeed, thinking that they are the same thing might have something to do with why roleplaying (original meaning) is declining in the first place. If people imagine that the tabletop game is or should be as limited as the computer simulations thereof, no wonder they don't want to put in the effort.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Gee!

Whatever happened to dialog between PCs and monsters?

Well, in my experience, most monsters don't really talk back all that much, and those which do - being, generally, slobbery hordes of twisted souls - aren't much interested in what the PCs have to say.

There are, however, certain NPCs with which converse can be productive. On the CRPG front, as long ago as the Gold Box Series you could speak / interact with wandering bands of humanoids (incl. goblins, hobgoblins, etc.) and bribe them to leave you alone, join you in an upcoming fight, get information from them, etc.

Does anyone recall my humerous little anecdote, "The Giant's Bag"? No computer-run game short of the Starship Enterprise's holodeck could begin to duplicate that sort of play, and encounters of that sort were common in the play of the Greyhawk Campaign...as they should be in all true RPG campaigns.

I can't say as I've ever read that, no. But, again (and assuming what happened in the story), I think you are missing one of the major aspects of MMORPGs, and that's that, occasionally, it is another player in the guise of the giant. It is a gamemaster sitting on the other side of the screen, talking back and interacting and agreeing to go on his own way for a couple shiney pieces of gold, or join you on your quest, or what-have-you, and this is even more common in smaller-scale MMORPGs like Neverwinter Nights (where the player to DM ratio can be roughly equal to a tabletop game, if you want to run it that way).

This debate is certainly a waste of time and effort,

I'm sorry you feel that way.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Well, in my experience, most monsters don't really talk back all that much, and those which do - being, generally, slobbery hordes of twisted souls - aren't much interested in what the PCs have to say.

That's sort of sad, actually.

I think you are missing one of the major aspects of MMORPGs, and that's that, occasionally, it is another player in the guise of the giant. It is a gamemaster sitting on the other side of the screen, talking back and interacting and agreeing to go on his own way for a couple shiney pieces of gold, or join you on your quest, or what-have-you, and this is even more common in smaller-scale MMORPGs like Neverwinter Nights (where the player to DM ratio can be roughly equal to a tabletop game, if you want to run it that way).

IOW, there are times that the game operates as a role-playing game, and times that it doesn't. Which makes it a better-than-average RPG simulator, but not an rpg. However, while you are actually interacting with that DM, assuming that the program doesn't limit how that DM can react to you you would be playing an RPG. It is that assumption which, I think, is faulty.

BTW, while I am glad that using bold in "MMORPGs" convinces you, I have to admit that it doesn't convince me.

Of course, if you are using some other definition of "RPG" other than the original definition, such as (say) the definition used by several companies hoping to cash in on RPGs (using the original meaning), then you can say that whatever you like is an RPG.

RC

 

[ThirdWizard]

This debate is kind of like saying RAID 0 isn't a RAID. Sure, if you're speaking pedantically, there's no Redundancy, so how could it be a RAID? But, most people will just roll their eyes and go on considering it a type of RAID array. So, someone can go on about how KOTOR, Final Fantasy, and Neverwinter Nights aren't RPGs, but no one is going to stop calling them RPGs.

 

[Raven Crowking]

This debate is kind of like saying RAID 0 isn't a RAID.

No, it's more like saying that a tricycle isn't an automobile, as an automobile was originally defined, regardless of the fact that they share some points of simularity (ex: vehicle, tires, steering), and regardless of how many people now call it an automobile.

Of course, you agreed with me in one thread, which is over your quota for this year, and if we agreed in another thread before January, I am afraid that the Internet would not only explode, but also implode at the same time!

As I said above, many words and terms evolve, and gain additional meanings over time. Certainly, there is a concerted effort by the designers of certain types of games to market them by using the RPG term as a means of reaching an existing market.

As the term is now used, I would agree that a secondary definition of "role-playing game" may now exist which, in fact, denotes a simulation of the original definition.

What I will not agree to is that the secondary definition is therefore the same thing as the original definition. Attempts to conflate the two are disingenous, and lead to errors in reasoning, just as attempt to conflate "roleplaying", "role assumption", and "play acting" do.

Within the context of the statement that roleplaying has declined, earlier on this thread, the original definition is the only relevant definition. Attempts to use secondary definitions are spurious at best.

Many words have alternate definitions, some of which are mutually exclusive, and some of which can fall under an overarching meta-defintion. Surely, both definitions here are "adventure simulation games" as both the automobile and tricycle are "wheeled vehicles". That doesn't mean that they are the same thing.

Indeed, thinking that they are the same thing might have something to do with why roleplaying (original meaning) is declining in the first place. If people imagine that the tabletop game is or should be as limited as the computer simulations thereof, no wonder they don't want to put in the effort.

RC

 

[ThirdWizard]

No, it's more like saying that a tricycle isn't an automobile, as an automobile was originally defined, regardless of the fact that they share some points of simularity (ex: vehicle, tires, steering), and regardless of how many people now call it an automobile.

By the strictest definition, though, according to original design on the part of what a RAID is, RAID 0 was not included. It was added later as what a RAID did and could be defined as changed over time. Eventually, RAID 0 became a common type of RAID understood by most people who deal with that kind of thing to be a RAID, even though the acronym stands for Redundant Array of Independent Disks. No redundancy exists in RAID 0, yet it is still seen as a RAID.

That's what's happened to the term RPG over the years. Colloquially, no roleplaying is required for a game to be an RPG, or a Role Playing Game (writing it out for emphasis here, I don't doubt everyone knows what it stands for!). If you ask someone what kind of game Final Fantasy is, people will say its a RPG, despite the lack of roleplaying involved in the game.

And, they aren't wrong. Final Fantasy is a line of computer roleplaying games. The term has expanded quite a lot since ye olden days. This is why we now make the distinction into various sub groups. You've got your P&P or Tabletop RPG. You've got your CRPG. You've got your MMORPG. The term has evolved. Heck, Pokemon is an RPG!

You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Of course, you agreed with me in one thread, which is over your quota for this year, and if we agreed in another thread before January, I am afraid that the Internet would not only explode, but also implode at the same time!

Just doing my part to try and save the internets!

 

[wedgeski]

Haven't read much more than this page of posts so ignore me if I'm just repeating anything.

I wouldn't classify any CRPG I've ever played as a 'roleplaying game' other than to the extent that computer RPG's have created their own genre and continually improve within it. Those that roleplay on WoW RP realms put so much work into breaking the boundaries of the game design that they may as well just play the Warcraft RPG and be done with it.

The defining characteristic of a true roleplaying game is the ability for the 'referee' (DM/Judge/GM/whatever) to improvise. One day a computer will be able to do that at least as well as the best DM's today at which point I think the whole world will suddenly realise exactly what the rest of us have known all along: good roleplaying is pretty much the ultimate gaming experience.

 

[Raven Crowking]

That's what's happened to the term RPG over the years. Colloquially, no roleplaying is required for a game to be an RPG, or a Role Playing Game (writing it out for emphasis here, I don't doubt everyone knows what it stands for!). If you ask someone what kind of game Final Fantasy is, people will say its a RPG, despite the lack of roleplaying involved in the game.

And, they aren't wrong.

Perhaps you believe so. But I certainly do not, nor would I refer to any FF product as an RPG. If you truly believe that "Colloquially, no roleplaying is required for a game to be an RPG", then I would have to submit that this is such a major change in definition that it is not in any way, shape, or form compatable with the original meaning of the term.

And we know the original meaning of the term, because the gentleman who coined the original meaning of the term told us what it was.

Hence:

As the term is now used, I would agree that a secondary definition of "role-playing game" may now exist which, in fact, denotes a simulation of the original definition.​

The term has expanded quite a lot since ye olden days.

Henry Ford creates an automobile.

Bob Bobson creates a three-wheel machine that he calls an automobile, which derives power from the user pedalling.

Henry Ford says it is not an automobile, because it lacks defining characteristics of an automobile, such as automatic power.

Other people side with Bob Bobson and say that, no, Henry Ford doesn't know what he's talking about.

The tricycle is sold as an automobile.

The term "automobile" has expanded quite a lot since ye olden days.

(Or, as some might say, using the term that way "expands" it to the point where it becomes meaningless except as a sales tool.)

Just doing my part to try and save the internets!

As am I. As am I.

 

[Raven Crowking]

One day a computer will be able to do that at least as well as the best DM's today at which point I think the whole world will suddenly realise exactly what the rest of us have known all along: good roleplaying is pretty much the ultimate gaming experience.

And the day after there will be threads on messageboards telling us that our claims to have done it that way before the Computer are just rose-colored glasses....