Computers beat up my role player

[Doug McCrae]

In some ways, a human GM can make a game a lot more limited. I very much enjoy sandbox-style PC games such as Morrowind or World Of Warcraft because I'm free to go anywhere I want, and to some extent do whatever I want - attack guards and steal things or fight crime and catch criminals; make money or gamble it away; join one faction or another. I'm not limited by a DM who's only allowing good alignments. I'm not limited by the adventure he has prepared for this evening. I'm not limited by what the other players want to do. Because really in a face-to-face roleplaying game, although we may claim imagination is the only limit, the other players and their desires are a huge limiting factor. I can't really go off and become a gladiator if the other players want to do a dungeon delve. I can't do a dungeon delve when the DM has a murder mystery ready.

In all computer games there are creative human beings coming up with plots and scenarios - the developers. A whole team in fact, working full time. So there's often more to do, in a sense there are more options, but within each scenario the interactivity is more limited.

Another benefit with the computer is the lack of bias or arbitrariness. The DM who won't let his 'Mary Sue' NPC lose and fudges things to ensure it doesn't happen. The DM who has it in for a particular player. The DM who has a peculiar view of reality. Aside from bugs, with a PC game one can be sure the rules are always followed.

 

[Dromdol]

You mean hey remember that time we captured Castle X and held it for 5 minutes before the soldiers started to respawn. That the guild X came along and started to greif us because they wanted the Kings drops just like we did. That son of a gun playing the Thief snuck up and looted the King's corpse after we did all the work clearing up to the fight and beating the encounter.

No. I mean, "remember the time we fought tooth and nail to take the castle, despite two allied guilds stabbing us in the back? Or how, after holding it for two months, and repelling multiple attacks, we were sold out by another ally for the price of a lesser castle? How we fought side by side with a rival guild to hold it, fighting against overwhelming odds as they came through the gates. Again. And again. Remember the last desperate struggle in the throne room, where one of our captain's single handedly dropped over a dozen invaders before they finally brought him down? Remember the mad rush to regroup, the desperate stab at regaining our foothold? Remember that? Remember a month later when we rallied enough support to overthrow a different castle from our enemy alliance, but a merc troop grabbed the throne? Not that THEY held it for long, as they were perpetually unable to forge lasting alliances...or how about when we bloodied ourselves tryin to take..."

I'm not talking about fights with respawning NPCs. I'm talking real players fighting other real players for valuable real estate. Winning, and losing, and forging memories of friendship, and loyalty, and betrayel. People that think MMORPGs are nothing but one more raid on Rags need to broaden their horizons, there are other worlds than these.

In any event, this thread needs a warning sign:

"Here be dinosaurs."

 

[Doug McCrae]

When I think about what I enjoy about human rpgs it's not really the variety of interaction because it's pretty limited.

GM comes up with mission. We solve mission by overcoming obstacles, dealing with NPCs and defeating monsters. Obstacles are overcome by using magic or making skill checks. With NPCs we talk to them, bribe or threaten. (Over and over, threats and bribes, bribes and threats, a computer could handle it very easily.) With monsters we hide, fight or run. Mostly fight.

Sure, we have the potential to do something weird, like befriend a monster or burn down the forest. But it seldom if ever happens.

By far the main benefit of traditional games for me is the social interaction in and around the game, the funny voices we put on, the humour, rather than the amazing versatility of the players and GM.

 

[Brazeku]

No. I mean, "remember the time we fought tooth and nail to take the castle, despite two allied guilds stabbing us in the back? Or how, after holding it for two months, and repelling multiple attacks, we were sold out by another ally for the price of a lesser castle? How we fought side by side with a rival guild to hold it, fighting against overwhelming odds as they came through the gates. Again. And again. Remember the last desperate struggle in the throne room, where one of our captain's single handedly dropped over a dozen invaders before they finally brought him down? Remember the mad rush to regroup, the desperate stab at regaining our foothold? Remember that? Remember a month later when we rallied enough support to overthrow a different castle from our enemy alliance, but a merc troop grabbed the throne? Not that THEY held it for long, as they were perpetually unable to forge lasting alliances...or how about when we bloodied ourselves tryin to take..."

I'm not talking about fights with respawning NPCs. I'm talking real players fighting other real players for valuable real estate. Winning, and losing, and forging memories of friendship, and loyalty, and betrayel. People that think MMORPGs are nothing but one more raid on Rags need to broaden their horizons, there are other worlds than these.

In any event, this thread needs a warning sign:

"Here be dinosaurs."

Hey you whippersnapper, get off my volcano!

Look, I've played a lot of MMOs. EQ, EQ2, WoW, Vanguard, SWG, whatever that one with 3 groups fighting is called (been a long time). Oh yeah, also Dofus and UO. That's 8. And every time, I've become bored after perhaps a month or two.

I could write a giant list of problems, but it all boils down to this: basically, the game world I'm engaging in within the MMO is simply no match for the one in my head. For example, the whole castle thing you went on about? I don't care. That's boring to me.

Here's the kicker- although it is possible in an MMO, through character roleplaying, to assign meaning to holding this castle or that- it always feels inauthentic- like it's something tacked onto the world, and not a part of it. RP servers just feel, well, ridiculous to me. Lord Magickwyng McFaeriedrow III may very well think that throwing a bunch of ye's in his text is character content, but I sure don't.

Disagree if you want, but don't say it's because of my lack of experience or because I'm a dinosaur.

 

[Hussar]

Speaking of wasting time, the attempts to rationalize non-RPGs, "computor RPG simulators," as something they are not, is that as far as I am concerned...bootless.

That pun is just ... beautiful. *wipes away a tear*

Nice.

 

[Gentlegamer]

When I think about what I enjoy about human rpgs it's not really the variety of interaction because it's pretty limited.

GM comes up with mission. We solve mission by overcoming obstacles, dealing with NPCs and defeating monsters. Obstacles are overcome by using magic or making skill checks. With NPCs we talk to them, bribe or threaten. (Over and over, threats and bribes, bribes and threats, a computer could handle it very easily.) With monsters we hide, fight or run. Mostly fight.

I will refrain from seriously commenting on how what you describe seems to dovetail with the characterization of 3e as "videogamey."

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(light humor)

Character (fails his save by 1 in old edition, makes it by 1 in new edition)

Player: Safe!
DM: He's out.
Player: Oh no he's not.

DM: (takes out a bat)

WHAP!!!

Character: Eeeeewwww. Now he's out ...

 

[Hussar]

I will refrain from seriously commenting on how what you describe seems to dovetail with the characterization of 3e as "videogamey."

Yes, but, what he said, other than including the words "skill checks" applies equally to all editions.

IME. YMMV.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

For example, the whole castle thing you went on about? I don't care. That's boring to me.

Similarly, the way in which a group I belonged to very, very briefly approached the WoD games was also exceptionally boring to me.

And yet, I don't believe I've ever accused them of not roleplaying ...

 

[Hussar]

Here's the kicker- although it is possible in an MMO, through character roleplaying, to assign meaning to holding this castle or that- it always feels inauthentic- like it's something tacked onto the world, and not a part of it. RP servers just feel, well, ridiculous to me. Lord Magickwyng McFaeriedrow III may very well think that throwing a bunch of ye's in his text is character content, but I sure don't.

That is, however, a slightly different thing than saying flat out that CRPG's aren't role playing games. That you or I don't like it is beside the point. Like or not like doesn't enter into it, other than from our own personal preferences. Like it or not, it is still role playing. Maybe not the roleplaying either of us is into (I too dislike MMORPG's), but, it's still playing a role.

I guess the question boils down to - is a DM (or GM) required in order to be playing a role playing game?

((On a side note, I'm very much on the fence on this one. I just find the question interesting))