Computers beat up my role player

[ThirdWizard]

RC, you seem to be saying that two things cannot simulate the same thing without one of them being a simulation of the other.

D&D simulates fantasy adventure.
CRPGs simulate fantasy adventure.

Neither CRPGs nor D&D must be simulations of the other for this to be true.

The real way to say it is:

A simulates C.
B simulates C.

It's that simple.

 

[Raven Crowking]

RC, you seem to be saying that two things cannot simulate the same thing without one of them being a simulation of the other.

No; I am saying that the analogy that Hussar supplies to conclude that A and B both simulate C, and that B doesn't simulate A, doesn't actually do so. Especially when we are discussing a product packaged and marketted as a simulation of D&D.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Especially when we are discussing a product packaged and marketted as a simulation of D&D.

No we aren't. Your definition of simulation is wrong.

You seem to think that anything like something else is a simulation.

EDIT: In other words, Nirvana is not a simulation of Pearl Jam.

Of course, this whole line is pointless to the discussion at hand as nobody was apparently ever using the simulation thing to justify their position, as demonstrated in the other thread.

 

[Raven Crowking]

You seem to think that anything like something else is a simulation.

EDIT: Straw man, by the way.


I am glad you are certain of your position; I do not find it compelling. The reverse is, no doubt, also true. The poll demonstrates that, at least so far as EN World goes, there is no universal, or even overwhelming majority, answer.

Unless a new (i.e., not already dealt with in the course of this conversation) argument is forthcoming, I suggest that we agree to disagree.

RC

 

[ThirdWizard]

EDIT: Straw man, by the way.


I am glad you are certain of your position; I do not find it compelling. The reverse is, no doubt, also true. The poll demonstrates that, at least so far as EN World goes, there is no universal, or even overwhelming majority, answer.

Unless a new (i.e., not already dealt with in the course of this conversation) argument is forthcoming, I suggest that we agree to disagree.

RC

You said that the Simpson's movie is a simulation of the Simpson's.

Quote a CRPG maker that specifically calls a CRPG a "simulation" or even some defintion somewhere that uses the actual term "simulation." I haven't seen that from you yet. You're inferring the word simulation from the wording that an CRPG tries to give a "similar play experience." Likewise, Nirvana gives a similar sound experience to Pearl Jam, but that doesn't mean they're a simulation of Pearl Jam.

And, the poll doesn't have anything to do with the simulation discussion at all, so you can't reference it for this.

 

[Shadeydm]

You said that the Simpson's movie is a simulation of the Simpson's.

Quote a CRPG maker that specifically calls a CRPG a "simulation" or even some defintion somewhere that uses the actual term "simulation." I haven't seen that from you yet. You're inferring the word simulation from the wording that an CRPG tries to give a "similar play experience." Likewise, Nirvana gives a similar sound experience to Pearl Jam, but that doesn't mean they're a simulation of Pearl Jam.

And, the poll doesn't have anything to do with the simulation discussion at all, so you can't reference it for this.

I don't find Nirvana and Pearl Jam all that similar actually.

 

[TwinBahamut]

Especially when we are discussing a product packaged and marketted as a simulation of D&D.

I thought I covered this in one of my big posts above, but I guess not...

When videogame publishers advertise a game as an RPG, this is not intended to be a reference to pen and paper RPGs at all. It is intended to be a reference to earlier videogame RPGs.

For the most part, I don't think videogame companies even care that D&D, or the D&D fanbase, exists. If a D&D player likes videogames, then that person is a possible customer, but if a D&D player doesn't like videogames, then why bother? They are trying to create a fanbase for their own products, and are not trying to borrow a fanbase from pen and paper RPGs.

Keep in mind, games like Baldur's Gate, Dungeons and Dragons Tactics, and the like, are not meant to bring more D&D players into the world of videogame RPGs. They are meant to bring more RPG players into the world of pen and paper RPGs.

Overall, I think your claim is just incorrect. Whether or not you consider videogame RPGs to be a simulation of D&D, most game developers don't think so.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Quote a CRPG maker that specifically calls a CRPG a "simulation" or even some defintion somewhere that uses the actual term "simulation." I haven't seen that from you yet.

http://www.amazon.ca/Icewind-Dale-2/dp/B000065DGH

Return to the Spine of the World, that famous mountain range deep within Dungeons & Dragon's official world, the Forgotten Realms, for party-based adventure par excellence. Icewind Dale II is a throwback to an earlier time when D&D simulation meant six party members, 2-D graphics, and a heavy focus on story and real-time strategy game tactics.

Icewind Dale II plays like Baldur's Gate with one major difference: you create and control your entire party, which leaves you free to experiment with the huge array of options D&D 3rd Edition makes possible. Halfling paladins, wizards with thieving skills, it's all possible because Black Isle dutifully added all the new skills, rules, options, and feats given to D&D characters in the tabletop game.

The story line is long and epic and maybe too focused for its own good. You can experiment with any character combination you want, but you can't really range far and wide, adventuring as you wish.

http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=566460&forum=42

NWN - is really the ultimate single character D&D simulation that has been created, combined with a vehicle (toolset) for transporting your imagination into the game itself, and a DM Client for that all-important Game Master element that is critical to D&D PnP.

http://www.2404.org/previews/442/Dungeons-and-Dragons-Online-Preview

It's also not a great D&D simulation as to replace Neverwinter Nights and Temple of Elemental Evil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative_gameplay

Baldur's Gate is an in-depth D&D simulation supporting up to six cooperative players.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_computer_role-playing_games

Bioware's Baldur's Gate series was no less important, as the most significant D&D games to be released since the Gold Box era. At the time, the games created the most accurate and in-depth D&D simulation to date, along with up to six-player co-op capabilities

http://www.ggl.com/news.php?NewsId=1369

However, one fact remains: there are thousands of dedicated CRPG fans who are dissatisfied with the console-based look and feel of current titles, and who continue to want to play a legitimate D&D simulation on their desktops.

http://forum.rpg.net/archive/index.php/t-75065.html

Finally got to the Temple, though, and they're starting to show some glimmerings of competence, so its not all bad. Don't recommend it for people who preferred the more story-oriented play of Baldur's Gate, but if you're a fan of the old Gold Box games or just want a hardcore D&D simulation, you should give it a look.

http://www.cs.unt.edu/~donr/courses/4420/offLimitsProjects.html

Dungeon's and Dragon's style game: a visual D&D simulation (as opposed to textual), similar to the popular game Rogue (Hack).

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cach...ay+"d&d+simulation"&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=20&gl=ca

Baldur's Gate is an in-depth D&D simulation supporting up to six cooperative players.

(Note, some of these quotes come from advertising press sent to vendors from the manufacturer, and are thus to be found on many sales sights. Google "D&D simulation" and you'll get enough hits.)

 

[Raven Crowking]

http://psp.ign.com/articles/794/794471p1.html

Published by: XSEED Games

Developed by: Global A Entertainment

Genre: RPG Simulation

 

[Kem]

I'd like to point out that there are just as many links and places that call the rules of D&D "Rules".

And just as many that call "CRPGs" "RPGs".

Showing even more that people decide what a word means, not a person.