Conan: Adventures in an Age Undreamed Of - Detailed Review from a GM and Player

[CapnZapp]

Prudish!? lol

That's priceless... if you want to know what actual scorn looks like - ask a random female gamer who you don't know (like you don't know me or nearly anyone else here) which rpg's "take every chance to describe flesh on display" and "describe NPCs in various states of undress for no particular reason" because that's what you really want to play.

In fact, sell tickets, I'd probably pay to watch you do it.

Are you absolutely sure you want to derail your own thread...?

You published a review. Someone asked a question. Would it really have been that hard to give just a neutral "no" for an answer?

 

[Caliburn101]

Are you absolutely sure you want to derail your own thread...?

You published a review. Someone asked a question. Would it really have been that hard to give just a neutral "no" for an answer?

I answered your questions several times as you developed your line of inquiry, and had already really tackled what you asked in my post on sexism and racism. You actually got a lot more detail than a simple 'no', but that this sort of thing isn't in Modiphius's offering on Conan was a very clear part of my answer you seemed to have missed or ignored.

Frankly I wouldn't take a comment like "If anything, Conan/Barsoom should be a game with rules that actively encourage you to shed armor and fight nekkid!" as a serious suggestion for any game.

As I have already stated, if that is what your are looking for, this isn't the game - perhaps Barbarians of Lemuria or Beasts and Barbarians for Savage Worlds would be closer to what you're looking for. But you should be aware that whilst the latter certainly has more of the elements you want, it has come under criticism for being sexist, and the author has seen fit to defend his artwork and writing choices. This is just one of the reasons I think having such elements in a game where you would like to encourage the subjects of that kind of portrayal to be players in it is a bad idea.

Even if you can personally differentiate between a sexist portrayal of a genre cliché and a more equitable lurid portrayal, not everyone can. Moreover, you won't always get it right yourself and if you embrace the chainmail bikinis and loincloths of yesteryear then it is likely someone will be offended to one extent or another by it. I am fortunate that all my current games, and the majority of games I have run for the last 15 years or more have had one or more female players, and having been gaming in rpgs since they were invented, I saw the start of the hobby and the 100% all-male groups that played it year after year. That was the 70's of course and the 80's - when regarding women 'a certain way' was much more mainstream - effectively excluding them from play.

Even now, the facebook Conan rpg communities and Google+ page for the game is overwhelmingly filled with guys - far more than for other fantasy rpgs. This is because of some of the pastiche and comic-book portrayals of women in the stories putting ladies off, or having steered them way from this sub-genre in the past. These later pastiches did and do not reflect the original stories, so having a game which does reflect the original stories is a good idea. Even Terry Pratchett in the Light Fantastic made a joke about the old chainmail bikini-trope of S&S, as it is such a cliché.

In any case, that's all rather moot as far as Conan: Adventures in an Age Undreamed Of is concerned, as it has been published with the sexual and racial sensibilities of the 21st century and not the 1930's or the 70's, highlights the strong and physically capable female character tropes Howard created, and it is all the better for it.

 

[CapnZapp]

I answered your questions several times as you developed your line of inquiry, and had already really tackled what you asked in my post on sexism and racism. You actually got a lot more detail than a simple 'no', but that this sort of thing isn't in Modiphius's offering on Conan was a very clear part of my answer you seemed to have missed or ignored.

Frankly I wouldn't take a comment like "If anything, Conan/Barsoom should be a game with rules that actively encourage you to shed armor and fight nekkid!" as a serious suggestion for any game.

As I have already stated, if that is what your are looking for, this isn't the game - perhaps Barbarians of Lemuria or Beasts and Barbarians for Savage Worlds would be closer to what you're looking for. But you should be aware that whilst the latter certainly has more of the elements you want, it has come under criticism for being sexist, and the author has seen fit to defend his artwork and writing choices. This is just one of the reasons I think having such elements in a game where you would like to encourage the subjects of that kind of portrayal to be players in it is a bad idea.

Even if you can personally differentiate between a sexist portrayal of a genre cliché and a more equitable lurid portrayal, not everyone can. Moreover, you won't always get it right yourself and if you embrace the chainmail bikinis and loincloths of yesteryear then it is likely someone will be offended to one extent or another by it. I am fortunate that all my current games, and the majority of games I have run for the last 15 years or more have had one or more female players, and having been gaming in rpgs since they were invented, I saw the start of the hobby and the 100% all-male groups that played it year after year. That was the 70's of course and the 80's - when regarding women 'a certain way' was much more mainstream - effectively excluding them from play.

Even now, the facebook Conan rpg communities and Google+ page for the game is overwhelmingly filled with guys - far more than for other fantasy rpgs. This is because of some of the pastiche and comic-book portrayals of women in the stories putting ladies off, or having steered them way from this sub-genre in the past. These later pastiches did and do not reflect the original stories, so having a game which does reflect the original stories is a good idea. Even Terry Pratchett in the Light Fantastic made a joke about the old chainmail bikini-trope of S&S, as it is such a cliché.

In any case, that's all rather moot as far as Conan: Adventures in an Age Undreamed Of is concerned, as it has been published with the sexual and racial sensibilities of the 21st century and not the 1930's or the 70's, highlights the strong and physically capable female character tropes Howard created, and it is all the better for it.

Since you clearly got the chance to not derail your thread and still persisted, I feel you have given me a green light to respond.

I asked you a question. You threw shade upon my question, entirely based on your own personal experiences. Now you climb onto a piedestal to speechify, again ascribing me nefarious intentions.

Let me set the facts straight:

You certainly did not answer my question. In fact, you did everything in your power to avoid giving me a straight answer, while taking every chance at guilt-shaming me. You are still doing everything you can to conflate nudity with sexism.

Well, I have news for you. Unless you're prepared to censor Frazetta (and by extension, Venus of Milo and a lot of classic art too), you are no better than Facebook censoring breast-feeding women and I call you out on it.

There was nothing controversial about my query. A property is more than the "purist" original books. Funcom's Conan game featured nudity. Why do you act all shocked and upset I should ask if that's the case with the ttrpg too?

Unless you explain, I will have to conclude it is because *you* cannot handle mature subjects. And don't bother explaining unless you first offer an apology - let's just look at this quote:

Even if you can personally differentiate between a sexist portrayal of a genre cliché and a more equitable lurid portrayal, not everyone can.

Are you really sure you can't see how offensive and problematic this statement is? Well then, let me explain.

It is not everyone asking. *I* am asking. Politely, even.

There is nothing sexist in my query. Why? Because I said so. If you don't take my word for it, I'm going to call you out on it. I maintain there is nothing wrong with nudity, as long as it is equal opportunity (unlike Frazetta).

I certainly won't address your various accusations, since I don't defend those random internet dudes.

It is time for you to face your own bigotry.

Again, if you are upset by me not simply going away, remember, I gave you every chance of retaining this as a thread on your review. And you squandered them all.

 

[HorusArisen]

WTF happened here, can’t any of the threads across any sites not degenerate into some bizarre non topic/game related tangent?

My god this is maddening, I enjoyed the first post and bam...start going on about bollocks

 

[Guest 6801328]

WTF happened here, can’t any of the threads across any sites not degenerate into some bizarre non topic/game related tangent?

My god this is maddening, I enjoyed the first post and bam...start going on about bollocks

It tends to happen more often when one (or more) of the participants fails to distinguish difference of opinion from incorrectness, and insists on telling the other person that their opinion is wrong.

Frankly I find this thread rather amusing and hope it continues.

/popcorn

 

[Caliburn101]

WTF happened here, can’t any of the threads across any sites not degenerate into some bizarre non topic/game related tangent?

My god this is maddening, I enjoyed the first post and bam...start going on about bollocks

A shame I spent so much time answering his on-thread questions only to see him derail something I put so much effort into. It's not the first time I've been whacked by a strawman and ad-hominem routine by him, but this is the first time it mattered to me at all.

Anyway, I'm off to go to bed now and tomorrow I'll be planning a Conan game for Saturday. As per usual, I'll be deftly avoiding rules-enforced nudity etc. or the unnecessary use of lurid sexual narrative whilst somehow managing to make the game an enjoyable and dramatic one with all the facets of Game of Thrones in the Hyborian Age.

Call me an old prude... but I put any desire for such things in my fantasy rpg experience behind me in my teens, and the fact this game doesn't have any of that stuff in it is a significant plus-point in my opinion.

 

[GlassJaw]

Wow this thread derailed quickly. Zapp, you need to tone it down. You aren't looking too good in this thread.

Anyway, this is a system I've definitely been curious about so it's cool to see a review. I really like Modphius - their Acthung Cthulhu stuff is awesome.

The system sounds interesting but the game designer in me has a hard time warming up to "lower-is-better" mechanics.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Wow this thread derailed quickly. Zapp, you need to tone it down. You aren't looking too good in this thread.

True, but Cali also could have just said, "No, it's not that flavor of Conan." Instead he spent a lot of words explaining in detail why he thought it was a wrong-headed question. Would have been simpler to answer it, and let readers decide for themselves if it was a good question.

 

[Caliburn101]

True, but Cali also could have just said, "No, it's not that flavor of Conan." Instead he spent a lot of words explaining in detail why he thought it was a wrong-headed question. Would have been simpler to answer it, and let readers decide for themselves if it was a good question.

Everything up to post #13 was reasonable and on-topic stuff from him.

I wish it had stayed there.

 

[Jhaelen]

It tends to happen more often when one (or more) of the participants fails to distinguish difference of opinion from incorrectness, and insists on telling the other person that their opinion is wrong.

Yep. And it's quite helpful to take note of who that participant is. More often than not, you'll soon realize it's always the same guys. After putting about two dozen posters on my ignore list ENWorld became much more enjoyable for me!