Conan & lone wolf

[ColonelHardisson]

I'm looking forward to getting the "thrift edition" of Conan, which is listed as being $22 in Previews. I'd have gotten the hardback, but managed to read the reviews and see Mongoose's response before I ever saw a copy at a shop. Haven't seen the Atlantean Edition either, yet, so the cheap version will likely be the one I'll see first - I've already gotten Mongoose's "thrift" version of the B5 RPG, which I'm actually pretty pleased with.

What I've seen of Conan so far, including the material in Signs & Portents and the Scrolls of Skelos (which I bought), and the fact that Vincent Darlage is deeply involved with the game, makes getting it inevitable for me.

 

[Staffan]

what is Lone wolf, A comic book?

Check out http://www.projectaon.org/

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I'm looking forward to getting the "thrift edition" of Conan, which is listed as being $22 in Previews. I'd have gotten the hardback, but managed to read the reviews and see Mongoose's response before I ever saw a copy at a shop. Haven't seen the Atlantean Edition either, yet, so the cheap version will likely be the one I'll see first - I've already gotten Mongoose's "thrift" version of the B5 RPG, which I'm actually pretty pleased with.

What I've seen of Conan so far, including the material in Signs & Portents and the Scrolls of Skelos (which I bought), and the fact that Vincent Darlage is deeply involved with the game, makes getting it inevitable for me.

The pocket version is what I would recommend. Without art work and with further editting you will get more than your money's worth for that item. I would be sad, however, if they also reduced the liberal quoting from source texts.

 

[Ranger REG]

I would be sad, however, if they also reduced the liberal quoting from source texts.

Prepare for the worse, I'd say, as such luxury may not be included in the so-called barebone "thrift edition."

 

[Jonny Nexus]

All of the above plus a doctorate and a gaming (worktest) group of professionals like me. Perhaps others are similarly situated. I doubt it.

Your post doesn't make logical sense, and since this is an observation not an insult I'll explain why.

The quoted text of yours above was in response to my saying the following:

Why? In what way are you unique? You're not the only Conan fan. You're not the only D&D player, or the only D&D GM. You're not the only person who's been roleplaying for a good few years. You're not even the only person who participated in the Conan playtesting.

So what is it that you've got that no-one else has?

So, I was saying that you being a fan of Conan was not a unique thing. I further said that being a D&D player, a D&D GM, a long-time roleplayer and a participant in the Conan playtesting were also not unique factors. I then asked you what factors about you were unique.

Your reply:

"All of the above"

...which makes no sense. Because as I had pointed out, many other people will share those traits, so they don't make you unique. But maybe you are saying that it is only the combination of those traits plus a doctorate plus a "gaming (worktest) group of professionals" that makes you unique?

In which case I would make the following observations:

1) You still cannot know that this is unique. Given that you'd explect people who playtested Conan to be a) roleplayers, b) D&D players and c) Conan fans, I'd say that it's pretty good odds that one of them also had a doctorate.

2) Anyone can make themselves "unique" by specifying irrelevant attributes. I could say that I was unique in this discussion and then justify it by saying that I was the only participant who lived in a West London town beginning with H on a road beginning with C and in a house whose number included the numbers 7 and 3. But so what? You say you have a doctorate, but don't specify what it is in. Does the subject have any relevence to this discussion, or are you simply claiming uniqueness by virtue of being (in your opinion) more educated - and by implication therefore, more intelligent - than us?

3) "worktest" is a sarcastic expression you came up with to express unhappiness at the poor level of proof-reading on the original edition. It's was a reasonable joke to make then, but in this context you should be using the industry standard term (unless you're trying to confuse people into thinking that your group had a different role to the other playtest groups).

4) "professionals" - Earlier on in the thread you said: "I'm not a publisher (or freelance writer) as you both appear to be." So when you say that you and your group are "professionals" you presumably mean it only in the sense that they have well-regarded white collar jobs. So what? Most of us are white collar workers. I myself have a highly paid job as a programmer in the City of London. But that doesn't in any way make me better qualified to comment on the merits of a gaming product.

So, if we strip out the factors that you will share with many of the active participants in this thread (D&D player, Conan fan, and someone who's played the Conan game) we basically get to what you say makes you uniquely qualified to make a judgement on the Conan RPG:

You've got a doctorate and a job you perceive to be superior to the jobs held by the rest of us mere mortals.

Nice attitude.

I've essentially shared all this information in the above posts along with my informed opinion about this subject. Do you have an opinion about the Conan RPG, Johnny Nexus, or are you just trying to bait me? If the former, feel free to share it. If the latter, save it.

Okay, full disclose. (Not that anything was really hidden, given that there are links to loads of things in my sig).

I have no real opinion on the Conan RPG. I do own the first edition, but haven't played it nor studied it in great detail. But the people involved in writing it are friends of mine, and I know them to be nice people. You might not agree with their design decisions, but I know that they are nice people.

I am not trying to bait you. By contrast, I feel that it is you who has baited pretty much everyone else in this thread, and it is that baiting that has caused me to respond. (Hint: If you find yourself having simultaneous arguments with a half-dozen different people it's likely that the problem lies with you, and not with them).

You have made highly rude and unpleasent criticisms on the basis of inaccurate and subjective opinions that you present as absolute fact.

A random example of that: You said: but this game is ham-strung by ... someone's coporate decision to "supersize" the game by "going OGL."

When Mongoose put out the earlier Judge Dredd game, they made it D20 rather than OGL, meaning that it required the D&D Players Handbook. That decision ignited a firestorm on various message boards, with a whole hoard of people expressing their extreme unhappiness at this decision, and accusing Mongoose of everything from misleading advertising to "price gouging".

By contrast, I haven't heard anything like the level of complaints about Conan being a complete, playable OGL game. (Actually, this thread is the first time I've heard such a complaint).

So your statement about Conan's OGL status being a bad decision was merely opinion, and in my opinion, a mistaken opinion at that.

So in conclusion, yes, my posting has nothing to do with my opinion of the Conan game, and everything to do with the highly rude and confrontational way in which you are behaving towards people I'd class as friends. I think you might make more friends and influence more people if you simply stated what you didn't like about the game without being so aggressive about it.

Because your message, if you have one, is being lost in the vitriol.

 

[scourger]

I have no real opinion on the Conan RPG. I do own the first edition, but haven't played it nor studied it in great detail. But the people involved in writing it are friends of mine, and I know them to be nice people. You might not agree with their design decisions, but I know that they are nice people.

When Mongoose put out the earlier Judge Dredd game, they made it D20 rather than OGL, meaning that it required the D&D Players Handbook. That decision ignited a firestorm on various message boards, with a whole hoard of people expressing their extreme unhappiness at this decision, and accusing Mongoose of everything from misleading advertising to "price gouging".

Jonny Nexus, I never said anyone wasn't nice. All of my posts were predicated on my opinions about this product. Unlike you, I don't know any of these people personally. Even if I did, it would be inappropriate of me to post a negative personal opinion on these boards. If the qualifier "in my opinion about this game" is not in my every sentence, it is certainly in every post. I think the problem is that people misconstrue a comment about a product as a personal attack on someone and then rush to defend the perceived slight on a friend. And yes, I do disagree with the design decisions on this game and have the willingness to say it. I may even express my opinions strongly. Again, this is my opinion about this product.

I was actually hoping that Conan would be more like Judge Dredd. I think it is one of the best RPGs ever, possibly one of the best d20 games ever. It is still on my shelf whereas others are not. It adapted the d20 rules elegantly to allow play in a vastly different genre without throwing out the basic system. Conan did the opposite. It took a similar genre and broke the d20 system rules to try to fit. In my opinion, it failed. I would have been much happier if Conan had been developed the same way as Judge Dredd, but it wasn't. Opinions vary, however. These are mine. Again, this is my opinion about these products.

 

[Jonny Nexus]

I may even express my opinions strongly.

Why do you need to express your opinions strongly? Why can't you just express them? (Without the exaggeration and hyperbole).

 

[scourger]

Why do you need to express your opinions strongly?

That question gives me pause. Truthfully, I had a strong negative experience. It was almost the worst in my gaming experience. It still can be if I allow it. I don't think I will. Your question and your advice are well-taken. This topic is still a little too hot for me. My opinion remains strong, but I'll think more, post less and tone it down a notch (or three). I really appreciate it. You've reminded me of some hard lessons from this experience. One of them was to remember that it is a game played for fun, after all. Thanks.

 

[Emirikol]

I'd like to refresh this topic a bit:

Here are my original thoughts:

I desperately want to see the Conan RPG succeed, but I wish that they'd have just used the d20. I do recall, as another poster has noted, that some people didn't like that the Judge Dredd rules were d20 instead of OGL. Well, that's a d20 modern game. CONAN is sword and sorcery and would have drawn 100%, imho, more players had people been able to switch easily (that's the point of the d20 and gaming in general). I think a few new Feats and an optional 'parry/dodge' system could have been a lot simpler and left a lot more room for actual CONAN goodies. BTW, I did go dig up REH and he said that he would have preferred to see it my way. He say's he not much for a bunch of trivial rules

So, since I'm started the griping here, this is what I would do to give the D&D game RULES the Hyborian feel:

Starting Ability Scores: I like the 28 point buy.
Races: Use the Conan book (ignore any references to dodge/parry). I think they did a darned good job here.
Classes: D&D, Oriental, Hamunaptra, or Nyambe classes; call 'em what you like (borderer, barbarian, nomad, whatever). Dump all major spellcasters (clr, dru, brd, pal) except wizard and sorcerer (and call them whatever you want). Add 2hp to the ranger and dump his spells.
Feats: No change
Skills: No change
Spellcasting Magic: Combine all the spell lists (divine, druid, arcane, etc.). All spellcasting affected doubly by armor failure and encumbrance (includes divine, etc.).
Weapons: No change (change the names if you want new weapons)
Alignments: Doesn't really matter in Hyboria, except for purposes of any alignment affecting ability or spell: all spellcasters considered 'evil.'
Magic Items: Magical items pretty rare, powerful, and always cursed.
Monsters: Read a couple Conan comics or books and get an idea.
Combat: No changes; I feel fewer mechanics allow players and DM's to spend more time describing their actions

That's about it eh? Lots of trivial rules bog the game down. How about the short list?
Hyboria's stories were mainly about Conan's fantastic adventures in exotic locations. He also had a lot of sex with many and anonymous partners (after going on murerous rages and theiving exploits)..no rule is going to make that 'feeling.'

`Anyways, the CONAN system is still close enough that for a DM (GM) to run it using whatever system he wants, but we found otherwise it was a PITA because it was D&D but different (hence OGL unfortunately). Actually, my players (the ones that didn't quit the group during the playtest..seriously...) said that they would consider playing in Hyboria again only if I use the D&D rules anyways. We really had a good time playing there. The cultures are SOOOOOO deep and supported by numerous awesome stories in the comics and books. Heck, in Nordheimr, you could probably have a pretty classic D&D setting if you chose.

jh





..

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I recently picked up the Conan RPG. Although a huge REH fan, I probably won't play in a Conan campaign. I will, however, almost certainly use some or all of the Conan rules. The quality or lack thereof of Conan's ruleset isn't my issue here, though; rather, it's the outrageous request that Conan be d20 rather than OGL

Making Conan OGL gives Mongoose:

A potential player base not limited to existing roleplayers in general and D&D players specifically.
A chance to improve (ITHO) on the not-insignificant problems with D&D 3.x in general.
A chance to tailor the mechanics to fit the system.
No chance of having their license revoked by a future corporate decision at Hasbro/WotC.
No chance of having their license revoked by CURRENT corporate decisions at Hasbro/WotC that could, in theory, result in most of the existing Conan product and any genuinely Howard-flavored later products being recalled and destroyed.

The first consideration is by far the most important. If I were considering introducing a new player to d20-based games, I would never suggest Dungeons and Dragons, nor any other fantasy d20 game. I might suggest Grim Tales (one book), d20 Modern (one book), Conan (one book) or one of Mongoose's OGL offerings (one book each).

I would suggest the Iron Kingdoms, if it were OGL. But now I won't. The complete IK campaign setting requires at least five books for the DM (the DMG, the PHB, the IKCG and the forthcoming IKWG, and either the Monster Manual or the Monsternomicon, if not both). Even with online discounts, that will run our first-time GM more than $100; it's ludicrous. Players probably need a PHB and an IKCG: $70 in-store, probably $50 online.

I would suggest Warcraft the RPG - but not when it's not OGL. The core Warcraft experience is probably available with just D&D's core three and the Warcraft core book, but that's still a sizable investment.

I'm not going to ask a NEW PLAYER (you know, the single most important market in the industry) to enter into a game that requires between two and five books and typically over a hundred dollars American just to have the basic core material. Mongoose should be strongly commended for not doing so, either.

Mongoose makes a lot of licensed products: Conan, Babylon 5, Judge Dredd, Lone Wolf, etc. These products are, presumably, targeted toward fans of those products as much as they are toward veteran roleplayers. That puts Mongoose in a unique position to bring in many new players - and new GMs - to the hobby.

A new player is far more likely to buy a single $40 book (or its forthcoming $20 pocket version) than a $90 case of the core, or, God forbid, a $160 investment like the Iron Kingdoms.