concentration, ready, the deabte

[Tatsukun]

Hi all, can I get people’s opinions on ‘ready an action’?

A friend and I disagree on what you can ready with the trigger “if that guy starts casting a spell”. Here are our opposing views …

Let’s say that Mike the mage encounters Bob the lich. They roll initiative and Mike wins. He readies an action “If Bob the lich starts casting a spell, I …”.

The argument:

One of us (We’ll say person X) is of the opinion that you can ready any standard action. So, in this case, Mike can ready, say, magic missile. When Bob starts casting fireball, mike’s readied action triggers and Bob gets hit with a magic missile and has to make a concentration check.

The other person (We’ll say person Y) says that that doesn’t make sense. If Mike waited for Bob to start casting, there is no way he can finish his (standard action) magic missile before Bob can finish his own (standard action) spell. Thus, Bob’s spell has to go off first, followed by Mike’s. This means that it’s MIKE who will probably have to make a concentration check.

Opinions?
-Tatsu

 

[Hypersmurf]

One of us (We’ll say person X) is of the opinion that you can ready any standard action. So, in this case, Mike can ready, say, magic missile. When Bob starts casting fireball, mike’s readied action triggers and Bob gets hit with a magic missile and has to make a concentration check.

This is correct.

When the readied action triggers, it resolves before the triggering action.

Mike can even hit Bob with his readied Magic Missile if Bob starts casting quickened Fireball, and it will force a concentration check from Bob.

Order of events:
1. Bob begins casting, triggering Mike's Readied Action.
2. Mike's Readied Action interrupts Bob and resolves, causing Bob to be hit with a Magic Missile.
3. Bob makes a Concentration check based on the damage dealt, since the Magic Missile strikes while he is casting.
4. If the Concentration check is successful, Bob's action resolves and the quickened Fireball comes into effect.

That's how Readied actions work.

-Hyp.

 

[Ottergame]

Readied actions happen before the triggering event starts, so basically as soon as he sees the other guy casting a fireball, he quickly spouts out his magic missle to interupt him. Read the rules for counter spells on page 170 of the PHB. While it's obvious you cannot counter a fireball with a magic missle, it does spell out the fact you can cast a spell with the ready action just fine.

 

[Tatsukun]

Well, you have sided with me on the issue. Now, any advice on how to counter my friend's argument that you can't react before the other guy acts?

In this case, he is the DM of this group, and he wants to house rule it that you cannot interupt a spell with another spell with the same casting time by use of the ready action.

I can see his point, but I think if we get rid of the 'I ready M&M's to cast if Bob starts casting" action, sorcerors are at a major disadvantage because they have to know the spell to counterspell it (or use dispel magic, which is always risky).

Does anyone know of a passage in the book / Faq / Errata that states specificly that you can do this?

Thanks for the quick reply!

-Tatsu

 

[Hypersmurf]

Does anyone know of a passage in the book / Faq / Errata that states specificly that you can do this?

Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.

I can't see anything unclear about it.

He starts casting a spell - your action triggers, and interrupts his action.

He does not continue until after you've finished.

It's how readied actions work.

Distracting Spellcasters: You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell.”

Readying a single attack requires using the Attack action. The Attack action is a standard action. By his logic, surely you can't use the Attack action (a standard action) before the opponent completes his spell (also a standard action)... and so the "Distracting Spellcasters" paragraph is obviously complete nonsense, since it could only ever apply to spells with a casting time of longer than a standard action... and except in the case of a sorcerer or bard applying metamagic on the fly, all spells with a casting time of longer than a standard action can be interrupted without resorting to a Ready action.

Is he happy to rule that Readying an attack against a spellcaster won't disrupt a fireball either?

Or would he rather use the Ready rules as written?

-Hyp.

 

[Tatsukun]

So far his only claim is that you can't ready a standard action spell against another standard action spell. He says maybe a melee attack is faster or something.

I think he understands that the RAW say you can do it, he just thinks it's silly and wants to get rid of it. He's kind of dug his heels in here, and I really need some kind of explicit proof of the RAW being the author's intent.

Hype, you're at work arent you, that's the only way you could answer so quickly!

-Tatsu

 

[Deset Gled]

To use the same type or argument your friend is using, justify it by the fact that in readying an action, you are actively preparing to do the action ye making sure everything is exactly in place for it. You have your hands in exactly the right place to start the somatic components, you have the words to be spoken right on the tip of your tongue, etc etc. The opponent, on the other hand, is busy fumbling around in his pockets for material components, etc etc.

 

[Pax]

Alternately, point out that you've already "spent" the requisite Standard Action - when you declared your Ready Action.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I think he understands that the RAW say you can do it, he just thinks it's silly and wants to get rid of it. He's kind of dug his heels in here, and I really need some kind of explicit proof of the RAW being the author's intent.

You mean like:

Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.

...?

Hype, you're at work arent you, that's the only way you could answer so quickly!

Ha. As it happens, I am... but I'm frequently fairly quick at home as well

-Hyp.

 

[Tatsukun]

Well, I guess some of this is my fault. my friend's ruling came form my bringing up Silence and ways to fix it from being too powerful as a counterspell. We were going over the rules for concentration at the same time. I sugested this (pulled from my group's BBS)...

So here’s the way I read it (now that I have decided on an opinion). Bob the unlucky lich meets a party of 5 mages and one cleric out to kill him. The party members are named 1,2,3,4,5 and 6. The cleric is #4.

Everyone rolls initiative, Bob is dead last and everyone readies an action with the trigger ‘is Bob starts casting a spell...’.

Bob’s turn comes and he decides to go with fireball. He starts to cast and everyone’s readied actions come in.

#1 goes first, he readied Magic Missile, he blasts Bob and does 5 points of damage.

Bob makes a concentration check of (10 +3 + 5 = 18). He makes it.

#2 goes next, he readied Halt Undead. The DC for the spell is 17

Bob makes a will save DC 17, and passes so he is uneffected. But, since he had to fight off the effects of a spell, he has to make a concentration check of the same DC. He passes.

#3 goes next, and readied Gust of Wind, the DC is 16

Bob makes a save of 16, and fails! Now, that wind is keeping him from moving forward, and the DM rules that it interferes with his casting, so Bob makes a concentration check also at DC 16. The gods like him, he passes.

After that, #4 goes. He readied Silence. He casts it on the ground 5’ away from Bob, so Bob gets no save. But, as it interferes with Bob’s spell, Bob has to make a concentration check of the DC silence would be if it had a saving throw (in this case, 16). Bob makes the concentration check DC 16 and we continue.

Next up is #5, who readied Dispel Magic. He casts it and makes a caster level check against Bob. Bob wins so the dispel magic does nothing.

Finally, #6 goes last and he just readied the ‘counterspell’ action. #6 makes a spellcraft check of DC 18 and he makes it. Now he knows that Bob is casting Fireball. #6 knows that spell, and he has one ready. He uses it to counterspell and poor old Bob’s spell is lost.

There we go, note that in the next round, Bob has to move out of the area of the silence because you simply can not cast a spell with verbal components in such an area.

After reading this, my friend decided that really only #5 and #6 should be allowed. I guess you can lead a DM to water, but you can't make him agree with you!

-Tatsu