concentration, ready, the deabte

[BSF]

By the rules, you are correct. However, house rules trump the rules as written.

OK, so you want to argue against the house rule.

In this case, he is the DM of this group, and he wants to house rule it that you cannot interupt a spell with another spell with the same casting time by use of the ready action.

By this wording, you really cannot counterspell at all since interrupting with a readied action is the condition which makes counterspell work. To house rule this, you need to make a bunch of conditional statements on how readied actions work for spells. Without the conditionals, it breaks down to you cannot interrupt a spell with another spell. With conditionals, you can only interrupt a spell with a dispel magic used as a counterspell, or with a readied action to use the same spell to counterspell, or you cannot use a spell to interrupt another spell. The language starts to get a bit silly.

In the end, it really isn't that big a deal to have damage dealing spells interrupting spells and forcing a concentration check. A fighter standing in front of the spellcaster can still interrupt with a sword. An archer could ready an attack with his bow. The invisible rogue could still throw a dagger from 25' away for a sneak attack to interrupt the spell. Your DM needs to design opponents that take these tactics into consideration, is it really necessary to prevent other spellcasters, that have readied a damage dealing spell in the event that the enemy casts a spell, from doing the same?

Remember that using a readied action isn't "I will ready a counterspell, or a dispel, or a magic missile in case the BBEG casts a spell." It is "I ready a counterspell if the BBEG casts a spell." Or, "I ready a magic missile if the BBEG casts a spell." This doesn't preclude the BBEG seeking cover, drinking a potion, using a wand, etc. Readied actions are useful only as responsive tactics to a predicted course of action.

To me, it sounds like you have caught the DM a little off-guard and his initial reaction might need to be rethought. Changing tactics around, and using the PC's tactics against them once in a while goes a long way toward reducing the concerns of a magic missile interruption on a spell. It is still a good tactic, when it works, but it is not that overpowering.

 

[Hypersmurf]

He says maybe a melee attack is faster or something.

That's my favourite bit.

"No, no, it's a different kind of standard action!"

-Hyp.

 

[BSF]

Boy, in the 1/2 hour at work it took me to write my reply (between work tasks) a few more posts show up. Gotta love EN World!

Again, remind your DM that a readied action is sacrificing an action (That would have already happened) to have the chance to respond to a specific set of actions and drop your init for the rest of the encounter.

If it seems to powerful to your DM, then that is his perogative. But, he is trying to drag logic in an abstracted system. What happens if you ready a quickened spell to hit your opponent with? Is that "fast enough" to interrupt the spell? What if you ready a Power Word Kill, or Holy Word, or any other spell that is Verbal only and implies a one word casting? Does your DM really want to go through each spell and determine if it is fast enough to interrupt other spells?

It seems like a lot of work to me for a mechanic that is really not that unbalanced in general application.

 

[James McMurray]

As has been pointed out over and over, interrupting with spells is exactly the same as the attack action, and works per the RAW. However, I can understand your DM's ire. As one who has both used readied silences and had them used against him, it thoroughly sucks, as it makes a second level spell practically the ultimate counterspell.

See if he'd rather change the Silence spell's casting time to a full round action. Then it can't be used to counterspell, but it doesn't prevent spellcasters rom trying to counter with attack spells in exactly the same manner that non-spellcasters counter with attacks.

 

[Tatsukun]

See if he'd rather change the Silence spell's casting time to a full round action. Then it can't be used to counterspell, but it doesn't prevent spellcasters rom trying to counter with attack spells in exactly the same manner that non-spellcasters counter with attacks.

That was my origional suggestion. He didn't like it.
He didn't object specificly to my giving Bob the unlucky lich a save as per the SRD...

CONCENTRATION
To cast a spell, you must concentrate. If something interrupts your concentration while you’re casting, you must make a Concentration check or lose the spell...

... If the spell interferes with you or distracts you in some other way, the DC is the spell’s saving throw DC + the level of the spell you’re casting. For a spell with no saving throw, it’s the DC that the spell’s saving throw would have if a save were allowed.

(Bold mine)
In my game (where I am the DM) I have decided that silence "interferes with you or distracts you in some other way" and thus allows a concentration check to avoid loosing the spell at the DC it would have, if it had a DC. If the silence was in place at the beginning of your turn (as in, was not cast as a readied action keyed to something you did, and you try to cast in the area, it's 100% failure for spells with verbal componants (which I think is all but two).

I really like that reading, it makes silence very useful as a spell, but gets rid of the 100% counterspell ability.

Well, our game is on Sunday, that the day after tomorrow here, so I'll keep people posted (pun intended).

-Tatsu

 

[James McMurray]

That works too. I'll run those two options past the players in my game.

 

[drnuncheon]

Alternately, point out that you've already "spent" the requisite Standard Action - when you declared your Ready Action.

Right. Just as the archer who has a readied action to 'shoot the guy who casts a spell' has already nocked his arrow and drawn the bow back, the caster who has a readied action has called up the magic and put everything into preparation to where it can be unleashed with a single word and gesture.

J

 

[borc killer]

To use the same type or argument your friend is using, justify it by the fact that in readying an action, you are actively preparing to do the action ye making sure everything is exactly in place for it. You have your hands in exactly the right place to start the somatic components, you have the words to be spoken right on the tip of your tongue, etc etc. The opponent, on the other hand, is busy fumbling around in his pockets for material components, etc etc.

I have always felt the same way as your DM but this quote from Deset Gled has helped ME legitimize it in my brain. I would use it to try to convince your DM as well. He can think of it as a spell completion thing... you do everything BUT cast the spell and then as soon as you see him start you zap him.

Borc Killer