Concerns about ship sizes used by D20 Future

[genshou]

1. Not an issue I brought up.
[...]
4. Not an issue I brought up..

Gee, did I take your "etc." too far?

I was simply providing all the rules for size advancement I could think of off the top of my head. I'm glad I was able to provide enough information that much of it was irrelevant

 

[Ranger REG]

I never said anything about total modifiers, only the penalty to a creature or object's Defense based on size. Let's face it... an unattended object or structure has a Defense of 5 + size. So, a Colossal or larger building has a base Defense of 5 - 8 = -3. In order to miss with a ranged attack against this object, you'd have to either be carrying some serious penalties (possibly for range) or roll a natural 1. Imagine yourself adjacent to it and using a ranged weapon. That gives a +1 bonus to attack rolls (all ranged attacks against adjacent squares gain the benefit of the Point Blank Shot feat), so in order to hit with anything but a natural 1 you'd have to already have a -5 penalty to your attack roll. If you're carrying penalties like that and roll so low, you probably shouldn't be hitting anything of any size. Like I said, "If you can't hit the broad side of a blue whale, you can't hit the broad side of anything."

Of course, there are some exceptional circumstances that can negate this. For example, if you are on the inside of a gelatinous cube, a monster's stomach, a mountain, or a building, it's pretty hard to miss if you're not targeting a specific part of the interior.

If you're trying to hit a Colossal-sized stationary building that has no ability to make any evasive action at point-blank range, only a sadistic GM would let you make an attack roll on the possibility that you will humiliatingly miss. Kinda like I when force a PC who got spooked to roll a Fort save or soil his pants (function of the body exacerbated by trauma).

There is a time to roll the dice and a time not to.

 

[genshou]

If you're trying to hit a Colossal-sized stationary building that has no ability to make any evasive action at point-blank range, only a sadistic GM would let you make an attack roll on the possibility that you will humiliatingly miss. Kinda like I when force a PC who got spooked to roll a Fort save or soil his pants (function of the body exacerbated by trauma).

There is a time to roll the dice and a time not to.

Well, some of us have to be sadistic!

I wouldn't require that attack roll either, but there are the rules for it. I'd say in those cases the "automatic failure" rule wouldn't apply, but if your penalties are low enough that you could miss without that rule...

So, in essence, I just cited the example to validate my point about size penalties to AC beyond -8 being a bad idea. With the case of objects as massive as skyscrapers and starships, I think I'd allow as far as a -16. That way, you really can't miss even at long range. But I think a -24 penalty to AC/attacks for a x3 Fine starship (+8 Fine, -32 for two levels higher on the scale) attacking a Colossal mecha (-8 size) may be going a bit too far.

 

[Ranger REG]

So, in essence, I just cited the example to validate my point about size penalties to AC beyond -8 being a bad idea. With the case of objects as massive as skyscrapers and starships, I think I'd allow as far as a -16. That way, you really can't miss even at long range. But I think a -24 penalty to AC/attacks for a x3 Fine starship (+8 Fine, -32 for two levels higher on the scale) attacking a Colossal mecha (-8 size) may be going a bit too far.

Ironic enough, I agree with you. Still, I offer an alternative for the opposition.

 

[genshou]

Ironic enough, I agree with you. Still, I offer an alternative for the opposition.

Nice to know I have some opposition, I suppose...

Thanks for your metric ruling, by the way. I'll use it someday when I'm less worried about keeping to the already-in-place d20 System measurement methods.

 

[Skrit]

*Edit* I used the word Dodge a lot... I should have used miss, since I didn't mean that ships could dodge, instead I ment how could you miss them!

I do not own D20 future but I know the d20 size system...

When I played/Gmed stardrive we never rolled for an attack on a ship as large as the Vition (808.5m length) unless the shooter is at long range. I mean if you think about it would a ship that size even care if a small ship attacked it, or could do anything about it?? The deathstar for example didn't seem to care much that they were being attacked by a bunch of small fighters since they posed "very little" threat. Large ships I think would only care about other large ships that can cuase massive damage to them, since they would be almost immune to small fighters unless en-mass.. Then they might have their own fighters to worry about them for the large ship..

Large ships shouldn't be able to dodge much if anything. If you take our modern day Aircraft carries for example, they're slow, can't maneuver well, what they do have is lots and lots of defences. They have the Phalanx system to take down fighters and incomming missles, pretty good armor, and lots and lots of compartments so damage can be sealed off to prevent sinking..

As for the big guns how would a big ship dodge them. Missles might be easy to dodge unless their fired point blank. They are slow for space speeds and the ship might be able to change course or at lease maneuver so they do minimal damage. Energy weapons are a different story, because usually by the time you know an attack is comming it's already hit you.. The Stellar Converter (Cheers to you if you know the movie) had to "Suck in" energy before it could fire, this would give you an indication that an attack was incomming so you could technically try to dodge it.

I will bow to anyone that tears my post appart since I do not know D20 futures specific rules. This is just how I think space combat is in my mind and what I usually use in game. I say roll to hit big ships comes up as a natural 1 something went wrong an you missed, targeting computer malfunction, or the weapom malfunctioned...

 

[Frostmarrow]

This site is soothing to me:

Starship Dimensions

 

[Ranger REG]

As for the big guns how would a big ship dodge them. Missles might be easy to dodge unless their fired point blank.

I don't know about missiles being easier to dodge. In most games I've played -- such as Star Fleet Battles -- your option is to outrun the missile until it runs out of power or use distraction like chaff or wild weasels. As for the big guns, it's the defending pilot who instinctively know when to evade or "roll with the punch" before the gunner hit the weapon's trigger. Other than that, thick armor and shield defense systems are the next things to rely on.

 

[Aussiegamer]

A nimble small missile is not going to be too easy to "dodge" in my opinion either.

 

[Skrit]

I don't know about missiles being easier to dodge. In most games I've played -- such as Star Fleet Battles -- your option is to outrun the missile until it runs out of power or use distraction like chaff or wild weasels. As for the big guns, it's the defending pilot who instinctively know when to evade or "roll with the punch" before the gunner hit the weapon's trigger. Other than that, thick armor and shield defense systems are the next things to rely on.

Not really to outrun the missle, I should have said missles would be usless at anything other then short range and slow sped combat. Since Lasers, partical cannons, Ion connons, etc (yes they don't exist but going by most RPG rules) they have very long range so technically most ship to ship combat wouldn't be up close and personal like seen in Colony Wars (old PS1 game). However if you're into the old buccaneering broadside shooting then yes missles would make mince meat out of most ships quickly..

If I'm correct right now our fastest Scram jets can go around 7,000mph and they're still pretty big rockets (also not sure they can operate in space). I'm not sure in D20 Future what the rules say about enguaging speeds of capitol ships but 7,000mph is still slow in space.. Maybe in the rules or something they take in account that ships fight under slow speeds, or their missles travel at much faster speeds so they can't be out run or just to slow to do anything..

But we're dealing with a game, so each to his own. These are just my thoughts on it so take it with a grain of salt. Just the way I see it is if ships are capable of extream speed but fight at slow speed what's to stop an instant get away once you take damage?? Unless they accelerate so slow they can't get away?? In games likes Tie fighter and the Old Xwing large ships were capable of an instant get away by jummping to light speed when needed...

*Edit* damn my typing skills!!