Conditions Precluding Withdraw or Tumble?

[Nyarlathotep]

Well, yes. But when you withdraw, you may move up to double your speed. Same effect as a double move is achieved.

While the effect is the same, the process is different. Double moving would draw an AoO for leaving the "first square", whereas Withdrawing does not draw an AoO for leaving the "first square". A double move is two seperate actions (a move and another move in place of a standard), a withdraw is a full-round action.

Edit: er.... what moritheil said.

 

[godfear]

While the effect is the same, the process is different. Double moving would draw an AoO for leaving the "first square", whereas Withdrawing does not draw an AoO for leaving the "first square". A double move is two seperate actions (a move and another move in place of a standard), a withdraw is a full-round action.

Edit: er.... what moritheil said.

Sure, but if I were DM, I would presume that if you say double move and are leaving a threatened square, you intended to withdraw and let it slide. But hey... semantics, right?

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Sure, but if I were DM, I would presume that if you say double move and are leaving a threatened square, you intended to withdraw and let it slide. But hey... semantics, right?

Well it depends if they are going in a straight line or not (you can only withdraw in a straight line - no turning corners!), but aside from that, yeah it is semantics .

 

[godfear]

Well it depends if they are going in a straight line or not (you can only withdraw in a straight line - no turning corners!), but aside from that, yeah it is semantics .

Really? Checked PHB & SRD and I didn't find the straight line limitation. Where might I find it?

 

[moritheil]

Sure, but if I were DM, I would presume that if you say double move and are leaving a threatened square, you intended to withdraw and let it slide. But hey... semantics, right?

IMC, I don't presume this; I ask. This allows people to RP combat-inept people, which is a nuance that people may or may not care about. So it might make more of a difference for my players.

You are a kind and gentle DM.

 

[Mistwell]

It is not. If I double-move, I move twice. If I withdraw, I take a full-round action to move away without incurring an AOO. The two are different. This is a basic concept.

Functionally, they are not different. Withdraw involves moving double your move rate, which is exactly what a double move is. However, withdraw has the added advantage of not drawing an AOO from the space you leave. A turned creature will withdraw, not double move, because both move them the exact same amount, but one has an added advantage. Turning doesn't cause idiocy in your target, just fear.

 

[Mistwell]

Well it depends if they are going in a straight line or not (you can only withdraw in a straight line - no turning corners!), but aside from that, yeah it is semantics .

Withdraw does not involve going in a straight line. You seem to have withdraw confused with Run. In fact, the pretty picture on page 144 of the PHB that shows you visually what a withdraw looks like even involves Tordek moving in a manner that is not a straight line. Maybe that is why you thought withdraw and a double move are so different?

[Edited to remove unnecessary snarkiness on my part]

 

[moritheil]

Turning doesn't cause idiocy in your target, just fear.

And fear never, ever, ever causes you to do dumb things, or inadvisable things, or less than optimal things?

Furthermore, are you certain that every zombie and skeleton has the tactical finesse to understand the concept of withdrawing? The way I read it, turned creatures, particularly mindless ones, aren't interested in anything but getting the heck away from the divine caster. And they are so interested in that, in fact, that it distracts them from defending themselves adequately.

If they cannot flee, they cower (giving any attack rolls against them a +2 bonus).

Now, I will agree that nothing says EXPLICITLY that they double move when they "flee" rather than withdrawing. This is therefore a DM judgment. I simply happen to think it makes more sense for them to "flee" via double moving instead of withdrawing, particularly in the case of unintelligent undead who, it can be argued, cannot even grasp the difference.

Nevertheless, let's examine another assertion, namely that a double move is exactly the same as withdrawing. Here's a quote from Withdraw:

(Invisible enemies still get attacks of opportunity against you, and you can’t withdraw from combat if you’re blinded.)

I'm pretty sure that you can double move while blinded.

 

[Mistwell]

I've got one right here, and it's for you.

To not include some sort of acknowledgement of earlier posts on the matter is a slap in the face to people who were involved in the earlier discussions. Basically, you're saying, "Gee, I know you all put time and thought into it, but guess what? I don't care! I want to start a new thread so I can hear things I like hearing!"

It should go without saying that this is rude in the extreme.

The entire point of this thread was to NOT involve that other discussion so as to get some perspective on the issue of whether or not the proposed interpretation was unique to Web, or whether there were other concepts in the game that support that interpretation. Quidam wasn't starting this just so he could hear what he wants to hear (in fact I suspect it's more the opposite of that). He started it to take a step back away from the argument he had invested himself in, and see if a clean slate without the mention of web would result in a consistent rules-based line of thinking on the issue.

In other words, he posted it here BECAUSE he cares about what you and other people said in that other thread, and wants to see if it holds up in a different context.

Besides, if you think someone has done something "rude to the extreme" it might be a good idea to email them and ask them about it. In this case, I tried to send you a private message on this, but you seem to have them blocked.

 

[godfear]

You are a kind and gentle DM.

/snerk

Yea... tell that to the legions of dead PCs that notch my belt. The challenges I throw at them are hard enough without catching them on a rules technicality.

Nevertheless, let's examine another assertion, namely that a double move is exactly the same as withdrawing. Here's a quote from Withdraw:

Quote:
(Invisible enemies still get attacks of opportunity against you, and you can’t withdraw from combat if you’re blinded.)

I'm pretty sure that you can double move while blinded.

Heh. Point taken. Even if you only get as much distance as a single move [/tongue in cheek]