D&D 5E Confession: I Sometimes Miss Vancian Casting

[AaronOfBarbaria]

I guess I mean, "Whichever spell of a given level is optimal, will be spammed repeatedly."

Ah, yes... but that just means a challenge as the DM to improve your chops: make sure that no one spell is always "optimal."

In the case of my party's wizard, he has a tendency to counterspell or dispel any serious magical effect -- which makes the game kind of boring. It means the first few rounds of a mage duel are spent just burning off each other's spell slots with counterspell to no real effect. Then the warriors wade in and finish the poor NPCs off.

I would love for the wizard to say, "Well I might want to save my one counterspell for later so I'll just let him conjure those animals... at least they will be nicely clumped for this fireball!"

A couple thoughts: If your players keep doing this, then either they enjoy doing it or they absolutely hate the sort of encounter you describe and are doing anything and everything in their power to get away from it as quickly as possible. Either way, one side of the equation needs to change - either you start having fun because they are having fun, or they mention they hate this encounter type and ask you to avoid putting them in it anymore.

And if your wizard thinks counterspell is a better use for a 3rd-level spell slot in that situation than letting the enemy caster successfully cast a concentration spell and using that 3rd-level slot on a spell attack directed at the caster that will do damage and potentially take their spell out of play... well, not much you can do about that except start a "counterspell-off" as has been mentioned and have your enemy casters counterspell your wizard's counterspell.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Lets take a look at the numbers:

A fireball cast in its normal slot does an average of 28 damage. 14 if the save is made. Yes the spell can affect multiple targets. A 5th level caster can do this 2 times per day.

A fighter with sword & board, an 18 STR, and dueling style attacks twice per round doing an average of 10.5 per attack. Attacking twice per round thats 21 damage per round all day every day. If the fighter chooses to action surge (cast fireball) then that jumps up to 42 damage for the round. The fighter regains his slot after a short rest also, so he/she can do this 3 times on an average day assuming 2 short rests.

The wizard does have the potential to out damage the fighter but not consistently by any means.

Nitpick:

You can't dock the wizard for saved fireballs and not dock the fighter for missed attacks. If that fighter is 8th level, and he's fighting AC 13 foes, he'll do 17.25 points of damage on average. Against AC 18 he'll do 12 points of damage on average. Even when he "fireballs" (i.e. action surges), all the wizard has to do is hit at least two targets and he's still ahead of the fighter. (Quelle surprise, Fireball is not a good single-target damage spell. Who knew?)

Even though I've nitpicked your specific numbers, I agree with your overall point. 17.25 is a pretty decent amount of at-will damage, and there are ways to increase it further. Fighters are fine.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Now, you don't get your reaction back until the start of your next turn. By using counterspell to force your own spell through, you sacrifice the opportunity to counterspell the other wizard's spells. In theory, then, you might allow the other wizard to counter your spell in order to keep that option. In practice, though, that's a losing bet*, because the other wizard will just force a spell through on you using the same trick. You might as well take the opportunity to strike first.

[SIZE=-2]*Unless you suspect you have more 3rd-level slots than the other guy. In that case, after counterspelling you, the other wizard might not have the juice to cast a power spell and burn a counterspell to defend it.[/SIZE]

The more interesting dilemma occurs when you're not the only wizard with Counterspell on your team. (My platonic party will have three Counterspellers in it by level 20. The spell is just that good.) Enemy wizard casts Fireball--how many friendlies are going to Counterspell it? Ideally you'd like exactly one person to do it. None is bad, and all is bad. But you have to decide when the spell is cast, and you don't have time to negotiate with the other friendlies, so I hope you guys have practiced team Counterspelling in advance....

Or consider that you're the master wizard, and you've just cast Wall of Force to section off the enemy. An enemy wizard Counterspells it. You have an apprentice nearby who might be about to Counterspell the Counterspell. If so, great! You can save your reaction for your Shield, which will help you avoid losing concentration. But what if he assumes you're going to Counterspell this one, and is saving his own Counterspell for nasty surprises? You don't know what your apprentice is going to do, so maybe it would be better to burn your own Counterspell anyway to preserve your Wall of Force, and just hope that nobody is going to hit you before you can get your Shield back.

That's a pretty interesting wizard duel IMO.

 

[Tony Vargas]

And people say 5e is 'less tactical.'

 

[bedir than]

I HATE unlimited cantrips. Because a world where unlimited cantrips exist would be so different than the worlds we think of when we think of DnD.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I HATE unlimited cantrips. Because a world where unlimited cantrips exist would be so different than the worlds we think of when we think of DnD.

Would you mind elaborating on that?

 

[bedir than]

Would you mind elaborating on that?

Need to go fishing? Just head to the local fishing hole and shocking grasp.
Why use flint and steel, or matches, or firestarter? You have a Fire Bolt. Do that.
Hunt with Eldritch Blast.
Why bargain for goods with that merchant? Just cast Friends.
You're an actor who no longer uses makeup. Just Disguise Self.
Lanterns are useless. Cast Light.

The list goes on and on.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Need to go fishing? Just head to the local fishing hole and shocking grasp.
Why use flint and steel, or matches, or firestarter? You have a Fire Bolt. Do that.
Hunt with Eldritch Blast.
Why bargain for goods with that merchant? Just cast Friends.
You're an actor who no longer uses makeup. Just Disguise Self.
Lanterns are useless. Cast Light.

The list goes on and on.

Sounds a bit like some D&D worlds. Continual Light cast on light poles all over the city instead of lamps or torches. That sort of thing.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Need to go fishing? Just head to the local fishing hole and shocking grasp.
Why use flint and steel, or matches, or firestarter? You have a Fire Bolt. Do that.
Hunt with Eldritch Blast.
Why bargain for goods with that merchant? Just cast Friends.
You're an actor who no longer uses makeup. Just Disguise Self.
Lanterns are useless. Cast Light.

The list goes on and on.

I could quibble with a few of those (Friends on a merchant is a bad idea, and dynamiting fish with Shocking Grasp also seems problematic), but all of these scenarios are exactly the same if cantrips are limited. (As witness the fact that Disguise Self is not a cantrip and is limited, and yet made your list anyway.) That's not a complaint about unlimited cantrips in the 5E sense--it's a complaint about magic ubiquity, if everyone knew all the cantrips, which they don't.

IOW, the best reason to hunt with a bow and arrow instead of Eldritch Blast is because you're not a warlock. (The other best reason is that 5E magic has a crummy range compared to a good longbow.)

 

[The Human Target]

Yeah even with limited Vancian magic the D&D world would be super different than the pseudo medieval beast it is, unless casters were super rare.