Confirm CR for half-fiend Hobgoblin.

[Ysgarran]

I've created a half-fiend hobgoblin (28 point buy) and gave her a level of Rogue and Wizard. What would the CR be? I'm planning for CR 4.

If I used a standard array of ( Str 13, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8) what would the CR be?

thanks,
Ysgarran.

 

[Gwarok]

Needs higher INT to cast wizard spells.

 

[Nail]

CR is not affected by ability scores. Period.

 

[Nail]

Since the Half-fiend's HD will be under 4, you'll have either a Wiz2 /Rog1 or vs versa. (Half-fiend CR is creature CR +1)

 

[Nail]

Morover, if you're using 28 point buy, you'd probably want stats of:
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 12

With Half-fiend racial ability modifiers, plus hobgoblin modifiers, you get:
Str 18, Dex 20, Con 18, Int 18, Wis 8, Cha 14

...which ain't bad at all, eh?

Tell th' PCs to put that in their pipe an' smoke it!

 

[Ysgarran]

Experience tells me that doesn't really make sense not to take abiltity scores into account for CRs. In my home campaign I was very generous in the stat scores of the characters. If I go by normal CR rules and default monsters they routinely mop the floor with the default monsters and CRs that would take out a party with 'average' ability scores.

It may not be by the rules but the only way I can challenge the players is to either bump up the ability scores of the monsters or throw higher CRs at them.

As you mention the second level half-fiend hobgoblin would be a very tough fight for a CR 3 creature, especially if you went with a 28 point buy.

Ysgarran.

CR is not affected by ability scores. Period.

 

[Nail]

Experience tells me that doesn't really make sense not to take abiltity scores into account for CRs.

Sure it does. And, to be honest, it's an easy way to keep yourself sane.

CR is a "relative measure". Is a creature with Str 20 tougher than Str 18? Sure it is. But how much tougher? No fractional CRs, now. Moreover, many of the monsters are assumed to have the default (elite) array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) -- a 25 point buy. Giving the creature a 28 point buy is not significant enough to include in the CR calculation.

In my home campaign I was very generous in the stat scores of the characters. If I go by normal CR rules and default monsters they routinely mop the floor with the default monsters and CRs that would take out a party with 'average' ability scores.

Sure. That's because you've changed the variables. So fix it!

Why not give your elite bad guys the same point buy as your characters?

As you mention the second level half-fiend hobgoblin would be a very tough fight for a CR 3 creature, especially if you went with a 28 point buy.

One might even say: a CR 3 challenge.

 

[Nail]

BTW, my PCs have "pumped" stats too. And I've used a half-fiend. The CR works perfectly.

 

[Sigma]

MM, pg 290, second paragraph under the heading Ability Score Arrays:

"Monsters who improve by adding a template, and monsters who improve by increasing their hit die, may use any of the three arrays (standard, nonelite, or elite). Any monster unique enough to be improved could easily be considered elite."

So, not only do ability scores not affect CR, but giving an elite array when applying a template is the typical situation where you would do so.

 

[Nail]

MM, pg 290, second paragraph under the heading Ability Score Arrays:

"Monsters who improve by adding a template, and monsters who improve by increasing their hit die, may use any of the three arrays (standard, nonelite, or elite). Any monster unique enough to be improved could easily be considered elite."

So, not only do ability scores not affect CR, but giving an elite array when applying a template is the typical situation where you would do so.

Exactly.

It is expected that BBEGs, or even "lieutenants" of the BBEG should have improved Stats...elite stats, even.