Confirmed: Magic items and summoned monster stats in PHB

[Rechan]

We play and want to play in such different games that there is probably no possibility but that we'll talk right past each other.

More than likely.

If I set down as a player, I'm going to keep track of my ammunition and rations both because I'll assume its expected of me and because I want to. If I knew that there was this unspoken understanding that I had unlimited ammunition and rations, it would harm my enjoyment of the game.

And I consider it a drag to have to keep up with that kind of thing. I care about the story. When I watch a movie or a TV show, the characters aren't seen keeping count of groceries, they just announce "We need food, let us go get food" and something happens. The same with ammo. If the PCs are stranded in the wilderness, their ammo and food suddenly counts because it's a plot point. Otherwise, it's just counting beans for the sake of counting beans.

It reminds me of a recent session. We needed to escape on horseback, FAST. We had one fewer horse than PCs because one had just joined. The one PC who had no horse was a warforged. It suddenly became an argument of what we were going to do with the warforged. People were looking up rules on how long a warforged could run before falling over, how many hours it would take him to recover, how much he weighed and how that would impact the horses.

Meanwhile, there's monsters on our tail about ready to eat us.

I finally just stood up and said, "I will give the warforged my horse. Someone, let me ride with you."

In earlier editions of the games, there were various techniques for randomly generating magic items if you needed them. For example, 'Appendix P' of the 1st edition DMG. The implications of that method is that +2 magic items are rare before 10th level! When my DM ran us on 'Tomb of Horrors' as a one shot, he rolled up a bunch of random magic items while we were making characters and said, "Distribute this among yourselves."

WHich is sort've pointless when you build your character to use scimitars, but the random table says you have a +2 bohemian earspoon, and otherwise you have just a regular scimitar. Uh, no.

 

[pukunui]

To each his own.

Indeed. Your way is just as good as mine.

In a lower-magic world, such as mine, each magic item has more importance, and figuring it out is part of the fun and challenge of playing the game. Having played both ways, from either side of the screen, I know that I prefer the in-game verisimilitude of figuring things out to the DM-gimme of being told. I understand, though, that there are folks who feel that my "in-game verisimilitude" is a bore-fest, while my "DM-gimme" is a convenience.

I would love to run a low-magic game, but I feel it is virtually impossible to do one justice with the 3.5 rules. At least, with my level of understanding of the 3.5 rules (3.5 strikes me as the ideal edition for people who love math. I don't.).

OTOH, I guess it would be fair to say that in your games choosing the learn the Identify spell is a poor choice indeed?

Not at all. I use a mixture of the two methods. The vast majority of the magic items found by the players have to be identified, either through trial-and-error or the identify spell. It's only the always-on static "booster" items (+x weapons/armor, +x ability score/saving throw/etc items) that get the "auto-identify" treatment. And even then, I never just say, "You've found a +1 sword".

To give an example from a few sessions ago, the PCs fought a red dragon who was wearing an amulet of health +2 and a ring of minor cold resistance. One of the PCs already has the former, and he was the one searching the body of the dragon, so I told him the amulet he found looked a lot like the one his character already had. I then let him draw the conclusion that it was the same thing, so he gave it to another player's character, and when that PC put it on, I told him he felt healthier or tougher or something. As for the ring, when the first PC (whose player is much more of a risk-taker than any of the others) put it on, I said it made him feel warm ... so the players began debating whether that meant it provided resistance to fire or cold. That was fun. I'll keep track of the ring's effects for now, but having to keep track of the amulet's effects (since it gives the PC now wearing it extra hp) would be a pain in the butt.

I used to (and sometimes still do) keep track of static pluses on weapons and armor and then after a few encounters I'd tell the player whose character was wearing it that they found the sword or whatever was more effective ... and then I'd say, "In game world terms, your PC has found that his magic weapon is more effective than normal ... in mechanical terms, that means it functions as a +2 weapon". You'll note that while the player now knows his weapon has a +2 magical enhancement on it, I haven't just out and out said, "It's a +2 longsword" or whatever. It might have other abilities he doesn't know about, and even if it doesn't, by not specifically saying what it is, then he might think it has hidden abilities ... which is all part of the fun.

And I consider it a drag to have to keep up with that kind of thing. I care about the story. When I watch a movie or a TV show, the characters aren't seen keeping count of groceries, they just announce "We need food, let us go get food" and something happens. The same with ammo. If the PCs are stranded in the wilderness, their ammo and food suddenly counts because it's a plot point. Otherwise, it's just counting beans for the sake of counting beans.

This is exactly what I do. I hate micro-managing silly stuff like food and bathroom breaks. They don't do that in movies unless it's relevant to the story. My players aren't really "simulationists". They're "escapists". They just want to have fun. They don't even like it when I sit there describing the weather and the terrain while they're traveling. I'm a bit more inclined to keep track of things like ammo and weight, but I'm willing to let the boundaries go a bit blurry ... with food, I tell them it should only ever be an issue if they're out in the middle of the desert where there's absolutely no way they could feasibly get food if they haven't brought any with them. At all other times, we just assume they not only can get enough food (whether it's through hunting, foraging, or eating at an inn or wherever) but also that they have an extra bit of money that they use to pay for it when necessary so they don't have to worry about subtracting little copper and silver pieces from their gold stash ...

 

[kennew142]

In previous editions, players were strongly discouraged from looking at the DM sections of books. They didn't know the abilities of monsters or the abilities of magic items.

This really, truly, DID increase the fun and the sense of wonder in my experience. That's not nostalgia. Most players that I have known enjoy a sense of mystery and the experience of discovery.

Every single person in my gaming group GMs at some point or another. No GM has any right whatsoever to even attempt to control what his players read. Most gamers I know (and have known for the last 30 years) like to know the rules of the game they are playing.

Nothing about the above statements will prevent a creative GM from changing monsters and items in a creative way. Players don't have the right to look at the GMs campaign notes, but GMs do not have the right to control a player's access to information. The very idea is ridiculous.

I support the inclusion of magic items in the PHB. The magic mart is very popular among players and it is unlikely to go away. That said, I will not allow it in my games. Most of the other GMs in my group will not allow it. But arguing that it shouldn't be allowed is hubristic at best. I never make the mistake of assuming that my style of play is the only appropriate style. That's what this argument is about.

 

[Rechan]

As for the Magic Shop, I prefer the "Weapons of Legacy" deal. Everyone gets their hands on a magical weapon sooner or later, but it has various utilities and you unlock the powers as you go up in levels (which requires quests), and so you keep the same sword from level 1 to level 20.

This should be easier to do in 4e, because only three items are assumed (Weapon, Armor, and Cloak). So I'll just give the PCs those bonuses rather than have them attributed to items, and then put the misc abilities of other magical items on whatever equipment they find.

This fits my belief that every adventurer should have 2-3 magical items, but those magical items should 1) stay with them for their career, their signature item, and 2) have varied, thematically appropriate powers.

 

[Gundark]

@ Raven Crowking

Nothing to say about your post...but you stole my sig!!!! You Bastard

 

[Dragonblade]

I used to play in games where magic items were a DM secret back in my early edition days. Sometimes it was cool, sometimes it wasn't. It really depended on the DM.

If an item is a plot device, or artifact level, I think it should be kept secret what it does. Not only that, I don't think the DM should even define what it does. The item just does whatever it needs to do to fit the needs of the story.

For less world shaking items, I just tell the players what it does and move on. I don't even bother with Identify anymore. I just assume the item's abilities are mentally imprinted on whoever picks it up. However, sometimes I'll add a little subtle comment and a devious smile to keep the PCs guessing.

For example: "You pick up the fallen ogre's axe. The blade is beautifully crafted and etched with glittering runes that seem to dance in the light as you tilt the blade to examine it. It's swing feels solid and sure, and you feel you have but to will it so and flames would erupt along its surface. You feel a surge of confidence as you hold it, and images of violence, destruction, and fire fill your thoughts for a brief instant. Almost as if the blade itself thirsted for such things. You have what seems to be a +2 flaming greataxe."

 

[kennew142]

As for the Magic Shop, I prefer the "Weapons of Legacy" deal. Everyone gets their hands on a magical weapon sooner or later, but it has various utilities and you unlock the powers as you go up in levels (which requires quests), and so you keep the same sword from level 1 to level 20.

This should be easier to do in 4e, because only three items are assumed (Weapon, Armor, and Cloak). So I'll just give the PCs those bonuses rather than have them attributed to items, and then put the misc abilities of other magical items on whatever equipment they find.

This fits my belief that every adventurer should have 2-3 magical items, but those magical items should 1) stay with them for their career, their signature item, and 2) have varied, thematically appropriate powers.

I should say that I do allow the characters to purchase magic items. It makes no sense that characters can sell magic items, but not buy them. However, I keep track of what items are available and where, changing it a little from visit to visit to reflect NPC purchases.

I really like the idea of legacy weapons. In my next campaign I am toying with the idea of magic magic items really rare. There will be few, if any, simple +1 weapons. Such items will be scaling, so that characters can only unlock their powers as they increase in level. The upside is that all magic weapons, armor, implements, etc... will sell only as the lowest level item. Characters will be encouraged by the economics to keep the items they've found rather than to sell them and buy something different.

I will often keep it secret if a weapon has the flaming burst ability, the shocking ability or the returning ability (for example), letting the players know only when the ability activates. But I let the players know the simple mechanical plus of any item. It's too much trouble for the possible benefit.

As for identifying an item, I prefer the characters figure it out from the description, its name, or by doing alittle bit of research. I have always hated the identify spell.

 

[Raven Crowking]

@ Raven Crowking

Nothing to say about your post...but you stole my sig!!!! You Bastard

Great sig, and it needed an adequate, always-on response.

 

[Raven Crowking]

As someone unfamiliar with AE, that really doesn't answer my question.

Surely, though, "and I like the idea of unique spells (and other secrets) that can be given as treasure" answered your question?

I feel that as a DM, I am well within my right to say, "You want to take Maximize Spell feat? Sorry, you have to go talk to the Cabal of the Scorched Mountain to learn the secrets of dragging all the destructive potential from your spells."

Anything, and I mean anything can be made special.

I agree.

RC

 

[pukunui]

I should say that I do allow the characters to purchase magic items. It makes no sense that characters can sell magic items, but not buy them. However, I keep track of what items are available and where, changing it a little from visit to visit to reflect NPC purchases.

I really like the idea of legacy weapons. In my next campaign I am toying with the idea of magic magic items really rare. There will be few, if any, simple +1 weapons. Such items will be scaling, so that characters can only unlock their powers as they increase in level. The upside is that all magic weapons, armor, implements, etc... will sell only as the lowest level item. Characters will be encouraged by the economics to keep the items they've found rather than to sell them and buy something different.

I've always liked the idea of being able to upgrade your items. Rather than selling your +1 sword and buying a +2 sword, why not seek out a smith who knows the secret of enchanting weapons and get him to upgrade your weapon? The cost is the same but you get the added benefit of being able to keep your sword (maybe it was your family's heirloom weapon that started out as a masterwork item and you had it enchanted with the original +1 in the first place) and you get a possible quest (find the smith) and make a contact/interact with the game world (whereas you might otherwise just do an OOC sale/purchase thing).

Despite the fact that upgrades have always been an option (and the 3.5 Magic Item Compendium has a table that makes them even easier), none of my players have ever done it and I've never seen anyone on the boards talk about it.