Confirmed: Magic items and summoned monster stats in PHB

I feel that as a DM, I am well within my right to say, "You want to take a "Shape Spell" feat? Sorry, you have to go talk to the Order of the Golden Wyvern to become Adept at reshaping your spells."
.....

Well, isn't that the point?
 

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We're hopefully past that part of the thread - but just a reminder not to bicker, folks. If you start addressing one person's attitude, it's probably time to step away from the thread for a bit.
 

pukunui said:
I've always liked the idea of being able to upgrade your items. Rather than selling your +1 sword and buying a +2 sword, why not seek out a smith who knows the secret of enchanting weapons and get him to upgrade your weapon? The cost is the same but you get the added benefit of being able to keep your sword (maybe it was your family's heirloom weapon that started out as a masterwork item and you had it enchanted with the original +1 in the first place) and you get a possible quest (find the smith) and make a contact/interact with the game world (whereas you might otherwise just do an OOC sale/purchase thing).

Solves so many other issues, too, like making sure the available magic weapons are what the characters are proficient with, and allows you to make larger treasure hordes, since you can take the 6000gp worth of magic items and replace them with 6000gp, which really helps with dragon-sized treasure piles.
 

Rechan said:
And I consider it a drag to have to keep up with that kind of thing. I care about the story.

Well, that's fine. Very high minded of you. Amongst RPGers, claims of caring about the story can be used to justify just about anything. I care about the story too. Very much so. But if I just wanted to tell a story, I'd write a novel or I'd literally tell a story to an audience. But the process of story creation is occurring within a game, and that carries with it all those other notions of simulation and competition that make it more than just another story artform. If I'm not keeping track of ammo, then that part of the game which is about me solving problems with my wits suffers.

And in my opinion, even the story suffers. It's annoying to watch a movie where the protagonist draws a revolver and then fires off 12 shots in rapid succession. It's annoying to watch stories where the writer doesn't pay attention to what is going on in the universe of his story. It breaks faith with the audience. In an RPG, it breaks faith with all the other players, even the ones just interested in story, in as much as having limitless ammo makes it more of a game even than keeping track of the ammo does.

It reminds me of a recent session. We needed to escape on horseback, FAST. We had one fewer horse than PCs because one had just joined. The one PC who had no horse was a warforged. It suddenly became an argument of what we were going to do with the warforged. People were looking up rules on how long a warforged could run before falling over, how many hours it would take him to recover, how much he weighed and how that would impact the horses.

Whereas, when I run a game, you have six seconds to come up with a plan of action or your character is assumed to do nothing but stand there feeling lost, confused, and perhaps paniced. It annoys some new players, but pretty soon they see the sense of it because not only do I not have to deal with problems like you discuss but I get a story in which the protagonists can feel lost, confused, and perhaps paniced.

On the other hand, if I only cared about the story, we might sit down and think awhile about the best way to run this scene so that it would produce the best story. But obviously, we both care about something more than that and mean something more than that when we talk about 'caring for the story'. I claim that keeping track of your own ammo as a player is part of that good caretaking of 'the story' in the same way that keeping focused on the idea that there is a monster about ready to eat you is good caretaking of the story.

WHich is sort've pointless when you build your character to use scimitars, but the random table says you have a +2 bohemian earspoon, and otherwise you have just a regular scimitar. Uh, no.

Well, if you'd read Appendix P, you'd find that you get your choice of weapon which might be magical, and you have various other choices. But, I suppose you are talking about the generation of items in a more random way than that. This gets really off target, but one of the things that has long annoyed me about the specialization rules is that they impose such a limitation on play. Time was, you could find +2 bohemian earspoons and it wasn't a disappointment. In fact, you might say, "Wow. This is going to be much more effective than my longsword against heavily armored foes." Now, apparantly characterization somehow equates with 'building your character to use scimitars', and DMs have to explicitly tailor thier treasure to fit the sort of things a character wants to find or they somehow feel cheated because thier character concept included having a +X doohickey by level 8.
 

cignus_pfaccari said:
That's one of the small problems with the "players shouldn't buy magic items!" view; if nobody's able to buy a magic item, you're not going to be able to sell one, either.



It's one of those annoying necessities. "Hrm, now, what does *this* do?" You can figure out what a plus is on a weapon given a log and sufficient time, but incidental abilities like Keen, Holy, Flaming, etc aren't necessarily going to be obvious, and hard to test for without magic.

OTOH, research only works if there is either (A) a known number of magic items in the world, or (B) a series of universal aesthetics that are used in item creation. "Hrm, that's four stars on the blade, with a squiggle, and it's a Roman shortsword...per the book, that's a +4 Elemental Bane short sword." While (B) is my preferred style if I run a game, that runs across the whole "not enough skill points" thing.

Brad

IMC, (magical) function follows form. Certain design elements must be present in order for certain magical properties to be endowed withing. A character who is sufficiently skilled, or who has access to a good library, can spend time researching the function of the item based on its design elements.
 

Celebrim said:
Well, that's fine. Very high minded of you. Amongst RPGers, claims of caring about the story can be used to justify just about anything. I care about the story too. Very much so. But if I just wanted to tell a story, I'd write a novel or I'd literally tell a story to an audience. But the process of story creation is occurring within a game, and that carries with it all those other notions of simulation and competition that make it more than just another story artform.
Fine. Allow me to rephrase: I care more about the story than I do about minutia. Minutia and simulation be damned.

So much so that I'm really adoring the narrative-modifies-mechanics rules that Spirit of the Century/Dresden Files emphasizes.

If I'm not keeping track of ammo, then that part of the game which is about me solving problems with my wits suffers.
In my experience, players never run out of ammo. They take the enemy's ammo, they stockpile ammo, they carry barrels of ammo in their bag of holding. There's no "Wit" to it.

And in my opinion, even the story suffers. It's annoying to watch a movie where the protagonist draws a revolver and then fires off 12 shots in rapid succession. It's annoying to watch stories where the writer doesn't pay attention to what is going on in the universe of his story. It breaks faith with the audience. In an RPG, it breaks faith with all the other players, even the ones just interested in story, in as much as having limitless ammo makes it more of a game even than keeping track of the ammo does.
For you it does.

I find no faith lost when no one has to pay attention to their rations count. When I proposed that to my group, people were relieved, not complaining about the loss of realism.
 

pukunui said:
I've always liked the idea of being able to upgrade your items. Rather than selling your +1 sword and buying a +2 sword, why not seek out a smith who knows the secret of enchanting weapons and get him to upgrade your weapon? The cost is the same but you get the added benefit of being able to keep your sword (maybe it was your family's heirloom weapon that started out as a masterwork item and you had it enchanted with the original +1 in the first place) and you get a possible quest (find the smith) and make a contact/interact with the game world (whereas you might otherwise just do an OOC sale/purchase thing).

Despite the fact that upgrades have always been an option (and the 3.5 Magic Item Compendium has a table that makes them even easier), none of my players have ever done it and I've never seen anyone on the boards talk about it.

My campaigns, with the exception of the FR campaign that is about to end, tend to be very low on high level NPCs. Upgrading is not much of an option above caster level 10.
 

Rechan said:
I find no faith lost when no one has to pay attention to their rations count. When I proposed that to my group, people were relieved, not complaining about the loss of realism.
I'd be laughed out of the room if I suggested that we start keeping track of 'rations'.

Naturally, if we're running a 'shipwrecked on a desert island' or 'trapped by an avalanche' story, then food becomes an obstacle which we can explore in play.

But otherwise? That sort of play is not to our tastes.
 

Wormwood said:
I'd be laughed out of the room if I suggested that we start keeping track of 'rations'.

Naturally, if we're running a 'shipwrecked on a desert island' or 'trapped by an avalanche' story, then food becomes an obstacle which we can explore in play.

But otherwise? That sort of play is not to our tastes.

This is one where I'm with the simulationists. IMC characters just pay upkeep when they are traveling in areas with markets, inns and taverns. I assume the characters can replenish their consumables and feed their faces without trouble. Whenever they enter the dungeon, or venture into less civilized territory, they keep track of rations. They always track ammunition.

That's what makes D&D so great. Every table has different tastes, and what works for any group is the correct way for them to play.
 


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