Confirmed: Magic items and summoned monster stats in PHB

Brother MacLaren said:
But my original issue was the player equipping his PC versus the DM equipping the PCs. That's the REASON for the magic items being in the PHB, and that reason is a problem for me. Do you see how, if the player is equipping his PC, he gets known, defined, non-mysterious items from the PHB, whereas if the DM equips the PCs, items can have hidden abilities?
That's not the reason for items being in the PHB. The reason is to make it easier for the players to reference information. It does not entitle the players to equip themselves with anything they want. Heck, my players have to ask me if they want to purchase anything off the regular item list if availablity might be questionable.

Edit: Puknui, JohnSnow, et. al... I wonder if it counts as being ninja'd if the horse is starting to look a little lifeless...
 
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Brother MacLaren said:
It is specifically the purchasing that I object to. Finding things, winning them in battle, receiving gifts or family heirlooms -- all fine.
One of the big problems (or is that features?!) of 3.x is that magic items constitute a point-buy powers system in disguise. Take away the ability for non-casters to purchase the magical abilities of their choosing/price range, and you tilt game balance in favor of the classes that get magic powers as class abilities.

If you remove 'item shopping' from the game, you need to also restrict spell access for the casters. The system assumes a fairly high degree of player choice when it comes to equipping character with supernatural assets. Restrict that in one place and you end up having to restrict it across the board.
 

JohnSnow said:
I believe the argument is that putting the items in the PHB implies they're purchasable at "Ye Olde Village Magicke Shoppe."

Which is, of course, nonsense. Just because something is in the PHB doesn't mean that every village green-grocer has it for sale. It just means that if it's for sale, somewhere, this is what it would cost.

Just as you can't necessarily buy a caravel or a spyglass in every village, you can't necessarily buy a magic sword, heward's handy haversack, or hippogriff either.
It is partly my reading of the phrase about players equipping their PCs with magic items, and partly my lingering resentment of 3E.
3E recommended that ANY item a PC wanted, if under a community's GP limit, should be available for sale. But it was a "Schroedinger's Town," since it had a fixed total limit. Exactly what items were for sale wouldn't be determined until PCs said what they wanted.
 

Raven Crowking said:
(For the record, I do not tell you that your +1 sword is a +1 sword after 10, 20, or 100 combats. If you haven't noticed that Bob hits on 15 and you hit on 14, that's perfectly fine with me. If you really want to know what your items do, cast detect magic and identify.)
Personally, I find this method to be tedious and totally un-fun. As the DM, I have so many things to remember already that having to remember to mentally add the magical enhancement of so-and-so PC's unidentified magic weapon is a real pain in the ass. Besides, just because the player hasn't noticed doesn't mean the PC hasn't either.

Sir Brennen said:
Edit: Puknui, JohnSnow, et. al... I wonder if it counts as being ninja'd if the horse is starting to look a little lifeless...
LOL.

Brother MacLaren said:
But my original issue was the player equipping his PC versus the DM equipping the PCs. That's the REASON for the magic items being in the PHB, and that reason is a problem for me. Do you see how, if the player is equipping his PC, he gets known, defined, non-mysterious items from the PHB, whereas if the DM equips the PCs, items can have hidden abilities?
You can always either assign some hidden abilities to the items your players have chosen or else just say that they didn't find anything with hidden abilities during their off-stage adventures and then you can start handing out the "cool stuff" during the actual adventure you're running. How hard is that?

As a fairly time-strapped DM, I find it much easier to let my players choose their equipment than to do it for them (as much as I might prefer the latter option) ... however, it's difficult for some of them to do this because they only have the PHB, so I either end up having to do it for them or else they have to come over to my house and look through my books to find the stuff they want.
 
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Sir Brennen said:
That's not the reason for items being in the PHB. The reason is to make it easier for the players to reference information.
Guess I read this wrong:
"Players won't need the Dungeon Master's Guide to equip their higher-level characters, because the PH will have plenty of magic items for all levels."

Looks to me like that sentence says the items are in the PH so that player can equip their PCs.
 

Brother MacLaren said:
But my original issue was the player equipping his PC versus the DM equipping the PCs. That's the REASON for the magic items being in the PHB, and that reason is a problem for me. Do you see how, if the player is equipping his PC, he gets known, defined, non-mysterious items from the PHB, whereas if the DM equips the PCs, items can have hidden abilities?

Why does it have to be one or the other? That is my problem with your whole attitude.

As a player, I DON'T WANT the DM to equip my PC with all his gear. And as a DM, I really don't want to do that either.

Some items the players equip themselves with - those are the ones they buy with their PC's gold.

Some items the DM equips the player with - those are the items that are gained through adventuring, either won in combat or gifted to them via Plot NPC's or whatever. These can have whatever mysterious or hidden the abilities the DM wants. And if the players don't like it, they can simply choose not to use it.
 

Brother MacLaren said:
Guess I read this wrong:
No, you aren't reading it wrong, but I think you are putting implications that aren't inherent in the game.

Yes, the players can equip PCs with magic items at higher levels. That doesn't necessarily mean that they bought these item from a shop, just that when a PC is equipped at a higher level, the players can all look at their PHB's to do it instead of passing around a couple of DMGs.
 

Brother MacLaren said:
Guess I read this wrong:
"Players won't need the Dungeon Master's Guide to equip their higher-level characters, because the PH will have plenty of magic items for all levels."

Looks to me like that sentence says the items are in the PH so that player can equip their PCs.
In the sense that I, the player, have to write/type the item on my sheet, and figure out - once the DM has told me what the item is or allowed me to identify it according to the in game rules - how the item interacts with my character's statistics, yes, I, the player, am equipping the item. And it's easier if the item is in the PHB.

Your reference to the DM "equipping" players seems a little strange to me, anyway. DM's place or provide items in the context of the adventure. A player then has his PC pick up and use the items, thus they are the ones equipping them.

You're just reading too much into the statement, I think. Equip <> Purchase At Will.
 

Caliban said:
Some items the players equip themselves with - those are the ones they buy with their PC's gold.

Some items the DM equips the player with - those are the items that are gained through adventuring, either won in combat or gifted to them via Plot NPC's or whatever. These can have whatever mysterious or hidden the abilities the DM wants. And if the players don't like it, they can simply choose not to use it.
And, personally, I don't see why you, as the DM, couldn't assign "hidden" abilities to a magic item that a PC has bought! Who's to say that the seller knew exactly what the thing did? Maybe it's a cursed item but the curse never manifested itself to the seller so he thinks it's just a plain old whatever ... that could be really fun, if you ask me. The player thinks he's bought a something-or-other from the PHB, but you, as DM, have decided it's really something else ...

I believe there's going to be less emphasis on the whole character wealth by level thing (if it hasn't been completely thrown out the window), so I doubt it'll be too much of a problem to "up" the power level of an item that a player has chosen ... especially if they don't know about it and maybe the extra powers don't manifest until the PC is at an appropriate level anyway.


Sir Brennen said:
In the sense that I, the player, have to write/type the item on my sheet, and figure out - once the DM has told me what the item is or allowed me to identify it according to the in game rules - how the item interacts with my character's statistics, yes, I, the player, am equipping the item. And it's easier if the item is in the PHB.

Your reference to the DM "equipping" players seems a little strange to me, anyway. DM's place or provide items in the context of the adventure. A player then has his PC pick up and use the items, thus they are the ones equipping them.

You're just reading too much into the statement, I think. Equip <> Purchase At Will.
If I understand Brother MacLaren properly, he's saying he doesn't like the idea of players being able to pour through the PHB and pick out magic items for their PCs in the same way they pick weapons, armor, and mundane equipment. I can see his point of view but I think it's an easy enough problem to solve. I also think the benefits of having the magic items in the PHB far outweigh any of the potential drawbacks.
 
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Caliban said:
As a player, I DON'T WANT the DM to equip my PC with all his gear. And as a DM, I really don't want to do that either.
Two simple statements which perfectly encapsulate my thoughts on this matter. Thanks.
 

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