Confused about NPC/Monster generation

[Remathilis]

I'm a little confused about how to generate custom monsters or NPCs (and in general, the "table").

Lets say I want to make a mercenary group for some mid level PCs to face. Nothing too fancy, just a group of baddies to wail on.

In 3.X: I would make them 3rd level warriors with a 5th level fighter as their leader. I'd go through the trouble of giving them treasure, feats, armor, etc until I had 4-5 complete NPCs with probably more info than I needed. (Warrior #4 has 4 ranks in craft:cooking!)

While this is a horrible headache for an encounter that should take 15 minutes to wrap up (or less depending on how many failed their reflex save vs. fireball), it does create an internally consistent battle: The warriors where chain (+5) and sheilds (+2) so their AC is 17+dex (if any). The fighter, wearing the same armor, has the same AC (maybe better for dex or +1 armor) and if the PCs drop him, they can take his chain and shield and have his exact same AC (+/- difference in dex bonus).

Now, if I am to understand "the chart" concept, a 3rd level "warrior" (since there is no NPC classes per se) should have an AC 15-19 (for example). I randomly assign them a 16 since I want them to be able to be hit. The 5th level "fighter" has an AC 19-22, so I give him a 20. However I describe them as all wearing the same armor (chain + shield). Taking into account a +1 "level" bonus to AC though and temporarily discarding dex differences, their armor is giving them wildly different bonuses (chain =15, chain = 17) furthermore, A pc puts on the armor and use their PHB "static" values (chain +5). I'm sure I can hand-wave the rest to dex, some magical ability, whatever, but it does seem "odd" that these characters, wearing the "same" armor, have widely varying ACs...

Worse yet is giving "gear" to a monster: Does switching the pit fiend's breastplate with a +2 full plate of command improve his AC? how much?

Furthermore, will I be able to challenge my PCs with fighters, rogues, warlocks, and other "PC" classed foes? Do they get skills and feats like a PC? Can I mix "the chart" with PC classes (such as a hobgoblin shaman who also has warlord levels? Will there be a way of determining the proper challenge level/XP for such customized foes?

While I realize there is a lot of things about 4e not known, there have been several references to NPC/Monster "charts" that make a good challenge and I'm curious: does the chart influence the numbers (3rd level challenge 15-19 where in full plate or naked) or does the numbers influence the chart? (a typical 3rd level challenge has X for dex, y from level and z armor, resulting in a spread from 15-19 depending on exact armor or dex score.)

Is it the chicken or the egg?

 

[rkanodia]

I'm a little confused about how to generate custom monsters or NPCs (and in general, the "table").

Lets say I want to make a mercenary group for some mid level PCs to face. Nothing too fancy, just a group of baddies to wail on.

In 3.X: I would make them 3rd level warriors with a 5th level fighter as their leader. I'd go through the trouble of giving them treasure, feats, armor, etc until I had 4-5 complete NPCs with probably more info than I needed. (Warrior #4 has 4 ranks in craft:cooking!)

While this is a horrible headache for an encounter that should take 15 minutes to wrap up (or less depending on how many failed their reflex save vs. fireball), it does create an internally consistent battle: The warriors where chain (+5) and sheilds (+2) so their AC is 17+dex (if any). The fighter, wearing the same armor, has the same AC (maybe better for dex or +1 armor) and if the PCs drop him, they can take his chain and shield and have his exact same AC (+/- difference in dex bonus).

Now, if I am to understand "the chart" concept, a 3rd level "warrior" (since there is no NPC classes per se) should have an AC 15-19 (for example). I randomly assign them a 16 since I want them to be able to be hit. The 5th level "fighter" has an AC 19-22, so I give him a 20. However I describe them as all wearing the same armor (chain + shield). Taking into account a +1 "level" bonus to AC though and temporarily discarding dex differences, their armor is giving them wildly different bonuses (chain =15, chain = 17) furthermore, A pc puts on the armor and use their PHB "static" values (chain +5). I'm sure I can hand-wave the rest to dex, some magical ability, whatever, but it does seem "odd" that these characters, wearing the "same" armor, have widely varying ACs...

Worse yet is giving "gear" to a monster: Does switching the pit fiend's breastplate with a +2 full plate of command improve his AC? how much?

Furthermore, will I be able to challenge my PCs with fighters, rogues, warlocks, and other "PC" classed foes? Do they get skills and feats like a PC? Can I mix "the chart" with PC classes (such as a hobgoblin shaman who also has warlord levels? Will there be a way of determining the proper challenge level/XP for such customized foes?

While I realize there is a lot of things about 4e not known, there have been several references to NPC/Monster "charts" that make a good challenge and I'm curious: does the chart influence the numbers (3rd level challenge 15-19 where in full plate or naked) or does the numbers influence the chart? (a typical 3rd level challenge has X for dex, y from level and z armor, resulting in a spread from 15-19 depending on exact armor or dex score.)

Is it the chicken or the egg?

I don't think anyone on this board knows and is allowed to say how monster creation works. My guess is that 'the chart' doesn't care about what gear an enemy has, but I don't have any evidence to back that up. I think comments my Mike Mearls have suggested that PC levels can be added to monsters pretty easily.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I think AC will still depend on basic details like Dex and armor type, but will now include a class bonus (for classed creatures like those fighters).

A lot of 3.5 monster sources (especially non-Monster Manual sources like adventures) didn't bother to break down AC beyond total and touch. Maybe that's what happened with the pit fiend. (I bet it's armor took into account Dex, breastplate and natural armor... and had a natural armor value.)

On another note, I think that battle would use 3rd-level warriors led by a 5th-level warlord. One of the things I like about d20 Modern (and Star Wars SAGA, and presumably 4e) are that classes cover a nice variety of roles. (A villainous fighter with high Int/Cha isn't really a combat leader; they're just RPed differently.)

 

[Alnag]

I don't know anything about 4e generating monsters or NPC.

But one thing strike me, when I read the first post. Why does it matter if the AC or any other stat is correct in the relation of what equipment or feats or any other thing the monster/NPC has.

The important thing here is, that the NPC is proper challenge for the party. For this you need stats on one hand and description on the other. The fact, that the stats are not derived from the description exactly but just approximately doesn't matter (for me at least).

Actually once I've accustomed to 3e I've generated NPC by approximation of their stats. I knew what should be the stats so I just write some numbers on a peace of paper. It wasn't exact? So what? It was fun. That's what counts afterall.

I can see how this method will work for 4e.

Once the PC loot the NPC the equipment which was so far part of a decoration might play more crucial role for them. That's is all right. If skillfully done I see no problem with this.

 

[Xyl]

AC for players almost certainly includes a bonus of 1/2 level, and probably a class-based bonus as well. In game-world terms, well-trained people are better at dodging, deflecting blows, guarding the weak points of their armor, and so on. Even though the mercenary leader, his minions, and the PCs would all have different ACs from the same armor, you can just handwave it away as being due to differences in skill.

 

[HeinorNY]

My best hint on monster creation is:
Think about his concept:
Big bad brute.

Decide monster level, based on how much you want to challenge the players:
Level 4

Generate ability scores based on his Humanoid type.
STR 20 (+5) DEX 12 (+1) CON 16(+3) INT 8 (-1) WIS 10 CHA 12 (+1)

Add half the monster level to his ability modifiers.
STR (+7) DEX (+3) CON 16(+5) INT 8 (+1) WIS 10 (+2) CHA 12 (+3)

Define equipment:
Great axe, Chainmail.

Derive numbers from modifiers:
Attack Bonus: +7
Damage: 1d12 +10(2handed weapon)
AC: 18 (REF+chainmail)
FOR 15 REF 13 WILL 11

Add flat bonuses based on Basher role. +3 to attack and +2 to Fortitude:
Attack Bonus: +10
Damage: 1d12 +10(2handed weapon)
AC: 18 (REF+chainmail)
FOR 17 REF 13 WILL 11

Define HP:
1d10 HD for Basher type, average 5.5 + 3 = 8.5 x 4 = 34 HP

Chose a number of trained skills based on Basher role and or humanoid type:
Intimidate +8
Spot +7

Choose Powers from Basher list:
Overwhelming Bash (at will:standard): +10 vs. FOR, enemy is pushed back 2 squares and is prone.

Of course numbers are wrong, most rules too, and there is much more to it, but based on what we've seen so far, it's something like that. You got the idea.

Just my 2 cents!

 

[Xyl]

Way too complicated. From a blog report about a DM creating monsters on the fly, and assurances that all the major monster stats are independent, the process of creating a monster most likely looks like this:

Come up with a concept.

Decide the monster's role, type, and level.

Look up that role and level in a table.

Pick hitpoints, AC, defenses, attack bonus, damage, and so on from ranges given in the table.

Optionally, add a special ability or two that isn't out of line with other monsters at that level.

Run it.

 

[HeinorNY]

Way too complicated.

I did it in 5 minutes. 3.5 was Way too complicated.
It's very intuitive actually. Why don't you try?

Look up that role and level in a table.

Pick hitpoints, AC, defenses, attack bonus, damage, and so on from ranges given in the table.

So all 26 level elite soldiers have the same numbers of the Pit Fiend?
All 6 level skirmisher have the same numbers of the Spined Devil?

Of course you can do it on the fly, I did it on the fly back in 3.5. But I don't think they made the creatures in MM on the fly, i think they followed some rules, some formula, an easier and simpler formula.

 

[Xyl]

So all 26 level elite soldiers have the same numbers of the Pit Fiend?
All 6 level skirmisher have the same numbers of the Spined Devil?

Of course you can do it on the fly, I did it on the fly back in 3.5. But I don't think they made the creatures in MM on the fly, i think they followed some rules, some formula, an easier and simpler formula.

Of course all level 26 elite soldiers don't have the same numbers as the Pit Fiend. That's why I used the word range. Making strawman arguments doesn't help your case.

One of the big problems with making monsters in 3.x was that changing one number (such as its Strength or Hit Dice) required recalculating a bunch of other numbers. The designers have indicated that that isn't the case in 4e; if you want the monster to have a higher attack bonus, you can simply raise the attack bonus. There are certainly guidelines, but any system that requires calculating most of the numbers based on other numbers is not the system they are using.

Here's a few quotes from the 4e info page if you don't believe me:

For each level of play we're devising a range of numbers for monsters that provide fairness and fun. Those numbers are based on what the PCs bring to the fight in terms of their potency and defenses, and upon the general role in the fight a monster is likely to be in.

Changes to individual aspects of the monster don't bring a lot of trickle-down effects or baggage with them, which makes monster design so much easier.

 

[small pumpkin man]

Now, if I am to understand "the chart" concept, a 3rd level "warrior" (since there is no NPC classes per se) should have an AC 15-19 (for example). I randomly assign them a 16 since I want them to be able to be hit. The 5th level "fighter" has an AC 19-22, so I give him a 20. However I describe them as all wearing the same armor (chain + shield). Taking into account a +1 "level" bonus to AC though and temporarily discarding dex differences, their armor is giving them wildly different bonuses (chain =15, chain = 17) furthermore, A pc puts on the armor and use their PHB "static" values (chain +5). I'm sure I can hand-wave the rest to dex, some magical ability, whatever, but it does seem "odd" that these characters, wearing the "same" armor, have widely varying ACs...

Characters with different levels have different ACs in the same armour, and possibly even different classes of the same level have different ACs in the same armour, AC no longer purely comes from armour.

Worse yet is giving "gear" to a monster: Does switching the pit fiend's breastplate with a +2 full plate of command improve his AC? how much?

I'm sure this will be explained at a later date. Like when people buy the books.

Furthermore, will I be able to challenge my PCs with fighters, rogues, warlocks, and other "PC" classed foes? Do they get skills and feats like a PC? Can I mix "the chart" with PC classes (such as a hobgoblin shaman who also has warlord levels? Will there be a way of determining the proper challenge level/XP for such customized foes?

Yes, you can make NPC's with PC class levels, and add them to monsters too.