Confusing Demons and Such

[ZappoHisbane]

IIRC, they look more like demons than devils. (remember that ice devils are technically demons), but they were vaguely humanoid, so I'm sure they could have changed that, I think the important difference was they destroy things, they don't tempt things, the fact that they're organized is very "undemony" yes, but remember that the destroy/tempt dichotomy is more iconic in 4E than the organized/unorganized dichotomy.

Also note that the very last sentence of the excerpt (at the bottom of page 67 for those of you with the book) notes that Yugoloths are "perhaps the most devil-like of the demons." So they are acknowledging the fact that these creatures aren't *quite* like other demons you might meet.

 

[Shemeska]

From what little I know about yugoloths I could fit them into that camp. They don't want to rule, they want to cause suffering.

They don't fit into that camp either, just as much as they don't conform as devils. They don't destroy to destroy, nor do they tempt to tempt, or control for the sake of control. They cause agony. Destruction can be a tool to that end, but it in and of itself is pointless. They're elementals of blind misery and raw malice wrapped in the multicolored cloth of the various shades of human suffering.

And because I'm feeling wordy tonight:

Everything had come in a blur of darkness and flame, curses spit in a tongue that burned the ears and blurred the vision with each uttered syllable, and in the end the mortal paladin’s house and family lay torn apart, ripped limb from limb, partially devoured, or incinerated. There had been no time to flee. Most of the dead never realized what was happening before their spirits were ripped free from the anchor of the flesh and devoured by a single, solitary fiend from the darkest pits of the netherworld.

Apteris Ib Shaelloth inhaled, letting the smoky curls of burning wood and burning flesh lick at his nose before being siphoned into his lungs where they mixed to his infernal delight like the bouquet of a wine to a picky connoisseur of fine spirits.

Lord Marcus Artellion, paladin of Torm and general of the armies of Cormyr lay at the fiend’s feet, pinned to the floor by his own sword which neatly punctured his thigh and dove deep into the stone below. The paladin’s face was stoic, as much as was possible with the bodies of his wife and three children laying just out of reach or pinned to the walls with their own extracted and fractured long bones. Everyone was dead except for the lord of the house, and the fiend seemed to be waiting to butcher him last.

“Do what you must fiend.” Marcus said, snarling the words and holding back the tears of a broken man.

“I can, I have, and I will.” The fiend said calmly, now licking at the air with its elongated jackal’s tongue. Its eyes were still closed and it seemed preoccupied with taking in the whole of its actions like an artist, only vaguely aware –or caring- of the paladin skewered and helpless at its feet.

“The gods will destroy you and your kind for this sin.”

“I’m sure that they would,” The ‘loth answered with a thick sense of contempt. “If only they were capable of it of course. Or maybe they don’t care about one or two ants beings roasted under the sun; one or the other.”

The jackal-headed fiend turned and looked at his last victim, stepping closer and kneeling down to look him eye to eye.

“Enjoy my death.” Marcus spat defiantly. “But you will not shake my faith in the end, even if you have killed everything I loved. Enjoy yourself but it will be hollow.”

“Of course I’d enjoy it.” The fiend replied, leaning in so close that Marcus could smell the paradoxical combination of brimstone, perfume, and rotting flesh upon its breath.

Marcus waited for it to end. He waited for immolation, claws ripping open his chest to grasp at his still beating heart, or even the beast’s teeth at his throat ready to siphon off his blood, spurt by arterial spurt.

Marcus waited but nothing happened.

“Hmmph.” The fiend snorted contemptuously.

Marcus inhaled and shuddered as he heard the fiend’s lips separate and felt the acid spittle dribble down upon his cheek. But the end did not come, and the fiend was smirking rather than preparing to gorge itself.

“Why are you waiting hellspawn?” Marcus asked, opening his eyes and gritting his teeth.

The fiend was sitting down, legs crossed and apparently relaxed. The fiend’s silk robes and manicured hands were still spattered in the blood of his wife and children, but the creature had an almost pleasant look upon its face as it locked eyes with him.

“Of course I’d enjoy killing you.” It replied. “I quite enjoyed butchering your family, and I even admit to having applied a rather loose reading of the terms of the contract that bade me lay low your house in order to extend the killing to more than your immediate family. Their blood is still fresh on my tongue, and a certain urge exists to continue that slaughter with you and simply be done with my obligations in order to return to other pursuits.”

“Then kill me.” Marcus said. “Everything I loved is gone. Do your worst and be done with it.”

The fiend leaned in and replied with a smile on its lips.

“Death would be a transient pain for you mortal.” Apteris Ib Shaelloth explained. “One brief flicker of emotion, agony, spilt blood and perhaps your soul slipping down my gullet like a still squirming infant… and then it would be over. Indeed I would enjoy your death on some level, and the taste of your soul would be a particular delight in its own way: greasy and chewy as I digested its metaphysical gristle.”

The fiend paused, licked its lips and smiled even wider.

“But your death is predicated upon one simple notion: the assumption that you matter and that I care.”

Apteris stood and brushed the dust from the knees of his robe, fastidious about the presence of the smallest speck of dirt, but absolutely uncaring about the Rorschach patterns in pooled, smeared crimson.

“As much as I might enjoy it in some fashion, I have absolutely no intention of killing you.” The fiend’s words were cold, but the despondent chill that pulsed through the paladin was even colder. “If you’re so intent on suicide, I’ve conveniently given you a sword through your left leg, so I suppose you should thank me for providing you with that little bit of grace.”

“What?”

“I’m not going to kill you.” The yugoloth replied with a sneer. “But I will take my leave of you now, and I’ll leave you with your family, now that I’m done with them. Do as you will little man.”

The paladin had no words as the fiend opened a slender rip in the fabric of space and prepared to step through. His heart lurched and the foundation of his faith shuddered and cracked.

“Your ultimate fate doesn’t concern me you see.” The fiend said as he stepped through the gate. “Your suffering holds no meaning mortal. But you shall suffer nonetheless.”

 

[The Shadow]

They don't fit into that camp either, just as much as they don't conform as devils. They don't destroy to destroy, nor do they tempt to tempt, or control for the sake of control. They cause agony. Destruction can be a tool to that end, but it in and of itself is pointless. They're elementals of blind misery and raw malice wrapped in the multicolored cloth of the various shades of human suffering.

Sounds like we have similar views on them.

And that short-short was quite good!

 

[Kunimatyu]

I like the "fiends of the Shadowfell" idea, and that's what I'll be using - yugoloth apathy blends very well with the gloom and despair of the Shadowfell. Thanks, The Shadow!

 

[Stone Dog]

An easier separation is something I think I might well be using when 4e comes out.

Devils are almost universally fiends of the Nine Hells, save for demons under contract to the Nine Hells like Ice Devils. They have the theme of hierarchy, temptation and corruption.

Demons are all other fiends, regardless of homeland. Most of them are in the Abyss, but some might have picked up and moved. They almost universally have the theme of hate, violence and ruin.

Most demons hate the world. They hate life. They want an end to all things. Yuggoloths don't care much about the physical world of matter, life and souls though. They hate higher concepts. They hate love, art, joy, faith, and virtue. These are the things that demand their ire. When the world is reduced to the naked and brutal honesty that is the Abyss they will be satisfied.

 

[Ipissimus]

Some good points there, I admit it seems that I've been falling into the pit trap of assuming that all devils will remain devils. Also some good ideas too.

After sleeping on it I think I might see the thought process behind the idea, though I think that a better idea might be, perhaps, splitting the former 'loths between the two factions.

Neutral Evil always struck me as the ultimate selfish alignment (if you'll excuse the Palladium reference). Sure, the other Evils are selfish but they have standards. Lawful Evil in particular demands obedience from 'lesser' beings and prizes a vaneer of civilization. Chaotic Evil destroys everything with only the meanest concept of 'heirarchy' based on bullying and the fact that more Chaotic Evil beings equals more destruction.

Neutral Evil doesn't care as long as they get something out of any situation. I can imagine a pre-4E 'loth being offered a choice between the two sides (and only one or the other, no 'middle ground) and shifting towards the Demonic because that allows them the most autonomy. If they joined the Devils, someone higher up would take all their hard-earned profits away. Being a Demon would allow them bargaining room for maybe their only defining characteristic: playing both sides against each other to come out on top.

Ok, that explaination's too rooted in the old editions but I think it makes a kernel of sense. I can certainly see the former 'loths as a faction of Demons out to make a profit for themselves by providing 'services'. All the better for keeping their skin where it is. Charon and his boatmen would be a good example. What might separate these Demons from their Devil counterparts is relative trustworthyness. Devils live to screw you over with fine print. At least Demons are open about their desires and, ironically, that could make them slightly easier to deal with if no less dangerous (of course, summoning fiends is still a fool's errand).

The Disease angle also strikes me as more chaotic than lawful, who lives and who dies in a plague boiling down to chance.

Another angle that might make them more demonic would be the 'evil through apathy'. The thought process could go 'I like seeing people suffer, but the whole infliction part's too much work. I'll just guide people to their doom, less work, all reward.' Charon, again, ferries you across the river styx for a fair price but won't lift a finger when the Marilith on the other side tortures you for the rest of eternity. After all, he's enjoying the show. This way, they don't fit in the Devil camp either. Following orders, backstabbing the guy above you, the danger in relying on others, it's all too much work. Better to be a free agent and take what you want from anyone willing to pay, willing or no, right?

EDIT: Just realized that I wasn't being too clear here myself.

The difference between a Devil in the above example and a Demon:

After contracting a Devil to transport you across the river Styx, it would immedately arrange everything to the letter. Then it would tell its immediate boss where it was going to land so that he could ambush you.

A Demon wouldn't bother telling anyone, it'd just make arrangements and drop you off. After all, what's the chances of a mortal surviving? Slim to nil. Even if they survive, the Demon gets the return fare, it's a win/win situation with less risk.

 

[glass]

a militaristic race of fiends that organize themselves into armies and sell their services to the highest bidder seems Devilish rather than Demonic.

Its difficult to sell your services to the highest bidder when you are trapped in hell, which the vast majority of devils are.


glass.

 

[Lurks-no-More]

I like the "fiends of the Shadowfell" idea, and that's what I'll be using - yugoloth apathy blends very well with the gloom and despair of the Shadowfell. Thanks, The Shadow!

It's a very cool idea indeed!

Another possible formulation of the difference between demons and yugoloths: the former want to murder the universe; the latter want to drive it to madness and suicide.

"You cling to your ideas of meaning and beauty, of goodness and purpose. We know better. Demons want to burn the world, but they are deluded. Devils want to corrupt the world, but they are blind. The world is already cold ashes and rot, with nothing between you and the emptiness. But when we are through with you, the veils shall be gone from your eyes. You will be endarkened."

 

[Ipissimus]

Its difficult to sell your services to the highest bidder when you are trapped in hell, which the vast majority of devils are.


glass.

And most Demons are trapped in the Abyss or whatever will pass for it in 4E (Elemental Chaos?). But even if Demons have an advantage in that department, there are always ways around that, particularly with ambitious evil clerics and wizards skulking about in the material plane, or perhaps quick networking trips to Sigil (hear that Sigil's back for 4E, which is interesting), so I can't really see that as being an issue.

At the very least, the Devils get around enough to make Tiflings, sooo...

I guess the point is moot, though, it was the inconsistency that really struck me in the first place, I can live comfortably with the new inductions into Demonkind. Hopefully this means that the former 'loths will get some support which has been a bit lacking in previous editions.

 

[SkidAce]

Good place to plug how I've always used the yugoloths. (Don't slay me Shem... )



Demons came from somewhere after the war of creation.

Tharizdun (NE) was trapped in our cosmos and does not like it.

Tharizdun warps a race of demons into the Yugoloths.

Yugoloths plot and plot and plot to either release Tharizdun, or destroy cosmos.

Yugoloths now universally hated of course, no one who wants to rule the universe wants it destroyed.

Yugoloths embody entropy, madness, and decay (see here's disease!).

Tharizdun in his eternal prison (where could he be, they think) subtlely influences when he can. Cause if he gets freed and destroys the cosmos, or the cosmos is destroyed and he is freed, its WIN/WIN!



That's been my backstory for a while. When new info comes out I either incorporate it into the history of the cosmos or discard it.

Of course the cosmos is in for a very rude awakening if they ever finish that third tower...muhahahahaha...