Confusion in Monk's Belt

[Slaved]

Moritheil's tweaking creatures by altering skill sets and feats don't change the CR, they might change the Encounter Level, but not the CR, CR is altered by altering stats, abilities and HD.

Changing feats changes the abilities that the creature has access to.

 

[javcs]

Changing feats changes the abilities that the creature has access to.

I should clarify that, by abilities I meant special abilities and special qualities from sources other than feats.
IE, if something took a feat that it normally didn't have instead of another that gave it say, fire resistance, the CR would be unchanged, the EL may change though; however, if you left the original feat and just slapped an equal amount of fire resistance on it, that would change the CR and the EL.

I'll clarify the original post.

 

[Slaved]

I should clarify that, by abilities I meant special abilities and special qualities from sources other than feats.

Such as equipment?

 

[javcs]

Such as equipment?

Such as a DM's demented mind.

Namely Templates, or racial characteristics ... I'll go put that in too ...

 

[Slaved]

Fair enough But when you change everything around that the creature could possibly have plus give it equipment that it was not listed with all you really need to do is change its name since apparently without the name change the challenge rating is static but with it a new evaluation may be made.

 

[Crosshair]

What a community of tangents, shooting off in every direction.

To prove how ridiculous the open-ended bonus to AC can be, someone brought up the fact that given to a monster, the belt would help some monsters kill a few parties.


Also, I believe it was a very relevant point that the belt is an open-ended bonus. There is no limit to the belt. I've heard a lot of people say "this or that" is appropriate for "XX level". These terms are dealing in specifics and do no present a sweeping argument for the item as a whole. It's more logical to view it from the standpoint of every power level.

The arguments about getting armor and a shield instead of a monk's belt are interesting... but the protection capacities of a fixed defense item are, well, fixed.


Many people have mentioned the fact that if the belt were to grant wisdom to AC it would be moot because most characters have a wisdom score that would make the defense bonus negligible. However, once PCs rise in wealth it may become more advantageous to bump wisdom instead of buying natural armor/deflection bonuses. This point is most valid in the transition from say a ring of deflection +5(nonepic) to a ring of deflection +6(epic). For the 310,000 gp difference you could easily boost your wisdom(and gain all the corresponding bonuses, such as listen/spot, will saves) for a few pennies less.

That's what I've got for the moment.

Oh yea, and thanks for all the random tangents :S, this is the largest thread I've had.

And what are you guys doing arguing about fallacies anyway??

 

[James McMurray]

Also, I believe it was a very relevant point that the belt is an open-ended bonus.

That's my only problem with the belt. It provides an unlimited bonus for a minimal price. If it said "you get your wisdom to AC, to a max of +x" I could evaluate it based on the value of x. But as it is, it's hard to evaluate because its worth fluctuates so much depending on who is wearing it.

 

[Crosshair]

If it said "you get your wisdom to AC, to a max of +x" I could evaluate it based on the value of x.

That would also solve the dilemma of whether it grants a wisdom bonus to AC or not.

 

[Jack Simth]

Many people have mentioned the fact that if the belt were to grant wisdom to AC it would be moot because most characters have a wisdom score that would make the defense bonus negligible. However, once PCs rise in wealth it may become more advantageous to bump wisdom instead of buying natural armor/deflection bonuses. This point is most valid in the transition from say a ring of deflection +5(nonepic) to a ring of deflection +6(epic). For the 310,000 gp difference you could easily boost your wisdom(and gain all the corresponding bonuses, such as listen/spot, will saves) for a few pennies less.

We have a Wizard, Wisdom of 12 for whatever reason (classic case - can't wear armor anyway). All his big guns go into Intelligence - Headband of Intellect +6, the +5 Int Tome, and all his level boosts. He picks up a Monk's Belt for the 13k, and looks into ways to use it to up his AC further.

Well, if he gets a +6 Peripat of Wisdom, he spends 36k to get another +3 AC. Or he could spend 32k to get a +4 Amulet of Natural Armor (same slot) for 32k. He saves pennies going with the natural armor. Sure, the Peripat adds to Will saves as well... but a Wizard already has a good Will save. The appropriet Tome is obviously out (not exactly saving money there). He can cast a Quickened Owl's Wisdom on himself... but that lasts minutes, and is only good for a +2. A Quickened Mirror Image does more for his defenses in most cases.

Once he's already maxed out everything else, then it's a benefit. Until then? Not so much.

About the only time it gets very good is for the Wisdom based characters (Cleric, Druid, and so on) - but they can use armor and shield, which is incompatable with the Monk's belt, and so must compare it to armor and shield from an optimization standpoint.

Core Almost worst-case Scenario: Venerable Druid at 20th, base 18 Wis, +6 Peripat, +5 Tome, +3 from aging bonuses, +5 from level up, Wisdom of 37. +13 Wis modifer, gets +14 AC from the Belt. Now, the Druid can't use Mithral Armor, so we're comparing it to Dragonhide Fullplate and a Tower Shield (+12 AC, before magic, max Dex +1). Up to +5, the Bracers of Armor that the Belt druid can buy match, exactly, the cost of enchanting the Fullplate, so we'll ignore them (well, the Druid can get Wilding on the fullplate, keeping it in animal form without worring about it too much, while the Bracers merge (core, anyway). So far, the Armored Druid is looking at about 4k in extra costs, vs. the 13k for the Belt, but is down... two points of AC (varies based on a secondary stat, Dex, which is capped for the Armored Druid). Putting a +3 on the shield costs 9k, and puts the armored Druid above the belt druid in terms of normal AC, but puts the prices about the same (armored druid actually slightly cheaper). The belt Druid is lighter, can go faster, and can take advantage of a more dex (but that adds additional expense). The Armored Druid can take Total Cover at will. Overall, slightly in favor of the Belt Druid, but surprisingly not by all that much.

The high Dex, High Wis Druid is about the best case for the Belt, and really only ecks out a few more points of AC for the cost. Not a lot. Clerics are often better off with Mithral, due to the increased Dex cap. There is a break-even point, though.

Basically, at low- to Mid levels (about 1-10), the Monk's belt isn't worth not having shield and armor. At Mid to High (about 11-16), it's mostly style (break even). Once wealth is hardly a concern anymore (about 17+), the Belt starts to get ahead (with support from other items). When you hit Epic, it comes into it's own (again, with support from other items).

If you spend most your game-time at 17+, yeah, the Belt is going to seem a bit overpowered. Otherwise? Not so much.

 

[Jack Simth]

I should clarify that, by abilities I meant special abilities and special qualities from sources other than feats.
IE, if something took a feat that it normally didn't have instead of another that gave it say, fire resistance, the CR would be unchanged, the EL may change though; however, if you left the original feat and just slapped an equal amount of fire resistance on it, that would change the CR and the EL.

I'll clarify the original post.

Some feats are more useful than others.

Take, for instance, Mr. T.

He's got 48 HD, and six feats spent on Toughness (+18 HP).

If he trades one Toughness out for Improved Toughness, he has a net gain of 45 HP. That makes him a little harder to beat. If he trades out the other five, he's only got a net gain of 30 HP... but he's also got five loose feats for, say, Multiattack, Improved Natural Armor*3 and Improved Natural Attack(Bite). Average damage from the beast in melee goes up substantially (hitting more often, dealing more damage on a hit), and the beast gets harder to hit (higher AC), and takes longer to go down (more HP from Improved Toughness). Unless you throw Mr. T into a situation where he's useless anyway (flying opponents with ranged attacks - and even then, Mr. T will last a little longer) the substitutions make him a stronger challenge. CR is (at least, officially) based on about how hard the critter is on the party. If switching out feats makes the critter harder on the party, the CR has gone up. Granted, it may not be worth a full +1 bump... but a bump it is.