consequences of removing the character-based limit on daily magic items?

[Black Knight Irios]

Magic item dailies (MID) are about choices.

If I can use any number of MID a day I don't have to choose. Many of them are minor/free/immediate actions which you can add to your normal standard action attack to power it up. Your players will have more options in an encounter.

Your players will have less to think about which power to use because they can use just another MID later, so one tactical factor is gone/weakened.

Personally I'm sure that it is not hard to track how many MIDs you have used a day. But I think it is much harder to choose which MID to use if I have more MIDs/day before milestones. Therefore, you choice is meaningful.

 

[Ryujin]

"Golf bag of staves syndrome": Characters load up on daily power items to supplement their power levels and it becomes difficult to create challenging and fun encounters for them.

 

[Danzauker]

You could rule that each magic item daily powers can be used a fixed number of times a day, instead of just one. Let's say two, or maybe three, depending on your gaming style.

Then you could rule that only one magic item daily power can be used in a given encounter, to avoid nova.

This way you are giving your characters more choice, since they can use any one of their magic items in an encounter, with minimal book keeping (it's just like all daily magic items had 2/3 "charges" that renew each day).

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Just as a side note:

It seems that most house rule suggestions add book keeping which you (OP) tried to avoid. If you use any of them it is more like you don't want to be forced into the choices the rules force upon you and it it less about book keeping.

If you admit that, you should ask yourself about your goal you wish to achieve.

 

[mattdm]

You could also disallow them from making magic items, or make it harder, in order to avoid problems from people having 20 of one item.

So far they don't have the enchant item ritual, and I have indeed kept a close watch on magic items. When they do get that eventually, I'm pretty sure we can handle the "golf bag of staves" issue with "c'mon, that's not cool".

Personally I'm sure that it is not hard to track how many MIDs you have used a day. But I think it is much harder to choose which MID to use if I have more MIDs/day before milestones. Therefore, you choice is meaningful.

This (and the rest of your comment which I've elided just for brevity) the crux of the problem. My players are finding this particular tactical choice to be a severe intrusion of D&D The Well-Balanced Tactical Minis Game into the roleplaying game.

It doesn't feel like the kind of resource management real heroes have to deal with. I would smite my foe with the holy might of my hammer of the gods! But, um, I lit a campfire this morning, so the warhammer won't talk to me. At best, it's OotS material, not high fantasy.

You could rule that each magic item daily powers can be used a fixed number of times a day, instead of just one. Let's say two, or maybe three, depending on your gaming style.

From my point of view, this is exactly the same as the original rule without any of its possible benefits.

Just as a side note:

It seems that most house rule suggestions add book keeping which you (OP) tried to avoid. If you use any of them it is more like you don't want to be forced into the choices the rules force upon you and it it less about book keeping.

If you admit that, you should ask yourself about your goal you wish to achieve.

Yes, I precisely don't admit that.

The bookkeeping is one aspect, but a secondary one.

I don't necessarily mind having to make the players make choices, but they should feel like natural, story based choices rather than games-rules choices. Having the story-based choices supported by the rules would be a plus.

Thanks everyone.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

This (and the rest of your comment which I've elided just for brevity) the crux of the problem. My players are finding this particular tactical choice to be a severe intrusion of D&D The Well-Balanced Tactical Minis Game into the roleplaying game.

It doesn't feel like the kind of resource management real heroes have to deal with. I would smite my foe with the holy might of my hammer of the gods! But, um, I lit a campfire this morning, so the warhammer won't talk to me. At best, it's OotS material, not high fantasy.

I don't necessarily mind having to make the players make choices, but they should feel like natural, story based choices rather than games-rules choices. Having the story-based choices supported by the rules would be a plus.

Thanks everyone.

So why can't your wizard just write all powers of a given level into his spellbook, there are enough pages. Why can't my Fighter use that Daily Stance in every encounter or just keep it active?
Because the rule say so and if players can buy this they can buy "you have only the magical potential to activate X + milestones MIDs a day". If you don't like that act more heroic, i.e. do more encounters/day and lvl up.

But I don't mind your business at your table.


EDIT:
The more MIDs you use the less important get your own powers. It will be back like the 3.x christmas trees, powerful on christmas but useless the rest of the year.

 

[OchreJelly]

Magic item dailies (MID) are about choices.

If I can use any number of MID a day I don't have to choose. Many of them are minor/free/immediate actions which you can add to your normal standard action attack to power it up. Your players will have more options in an encounter.

Your players will have less to think about which power to use because they can use just another MID later, so one tactical factor is gone/weakened.

Personally I'm sure that it is not hard to track how many MIDs you have used a day. But I think it is much harder to choose which MID to use if I have more MIDs/day before milestones. Therefore, you choice is meaningful.

This is an interesting observation, but the converse is also true. If PCs are limited on their MID use they could also hoard this use and always use it on one item. I have seen this in play. There is an item called Amulet of Death Deferred which will basically give you some free HPs if you drop below zero. Now this player never wants to use other items so he can save the use of his "life saver" ability in case he needs it. Granted when he reaches a milestone he can get a MID back but it tends to stagnate and "deadlock" item use until then.

I don't really think this is what the devs intended. I do appreciate that the devs of 4E wanted to do away with "Christmas Tree" or the "Golfbag" effect, but I would hazard to say that they may have gone too far.

To append my earlier comment and add to what others have said, maybe the house rule would look better as follows:
- PC attunes to one item of each type (head, foot, weapon, implement etc.) after each extended rest. For attuned items they can use the MID on that item anytime. After it's used it's expended for the day as normal. Encounter or heal-surge-fueled items work as normal.
- Consumables and Wonderous Items are the exception. You can use a number of wonderous item MIDs equal to 1 or your INT mod, whichever is higher. Each wonderous item must be different. No copies of the same item.
- Players can spend an action point to attune one new item (and overwrite the old attunement). The devs stated that they wanted to encourage people to use new items in treasure right away so maybe this approach satisfies the times when players find a cool new item they want to use immediately.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It doesn't feel like the kind of resource management real heroes have to deal with. I would smite my foe with the holy might of my hammer of the gods! But, um, I lit a campfire this morning, so the warhammer won't talk to me. At best, it's OotS material, not high fantasy.

I can understand the sentiment. My answer has always been "well, using magic items takes a lot out of you." If you extend that logic a bit, maybe you have an 'out', which could be something like "OK, you can use MORE magic item daily uses than 1/tier/day, but it will cost you." That would put back in the disincentives that prevent the golf bag of staves problem, but still allow some choice to the players. If it is critical that they unleash some extra magic, they CAN, but it will be riskier.

That leaves the question of what the cost would need to be. An HS doesn't really seem like quite enough, although maybe it is. Perhaps it would require an AP. Those are a pretty scarce resource, but you can also give them out more or less as you see fit, so it would provide you with the ability to reign in item daily use or be more relaxed.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

This is an interesting observation, but the converse is also true. If PCs are limited on their MID use they could also hoard this use and always use it on one item. I have seen this in play. There is an item called Amulet of Death Deferred which will basically give you some free HPs if you drop below zero. Now this player never wants to use other items so he can save the use of his "life saver" ability in case he needs it. Granted when he reaches a milestone he can get a MID back but it tends to stagnate and "deadlock" item use until then.

I don't really think this is what the devs intended. I do appreciate that the devs of 4E wanted to do away with "Christmas Tree" or the "Golfbag" effect, but I would hazard to say that they may have gone too far.

I think this is only the case if one MID is really good and all the others are lackluster when compared to that MID.

To append my earlier comment and add to what others have said, maybe the house rule would look better as follows:
- PC attunes to one item of each type (head, foot, weapon, implement etc.) after each extended rest. For attuned items they can use the MID on that item anytime. After it's used it's expended for the day as normal. Encounter or heal-surge-fueled items work as normal.
- Consumables and Wonderous Items are the exception. You can use a number of wonderous item MIDs equal to 1 or your INT mod, whichever is higher. Each wonderous item must be different. No copies of the same item.
- Players can spend an action point to attune one new item (and overwrite the old attunement). The devs stated that they wanted to encourage people to use new items in treasure right away so maybe this approach satisfies the times when players find a cool new item they want to use immediately.

Why INT? max(1, LVL/3) gets nearly equal results (1-10) and is fair.

 

[OchreJelly]

I think this is only the case if one MID is really good and all the others are lackluster when compared to that MID.

But that will always be a problem in a game where some items are just flat out better than others. Part of what I perceive as the problem with the current system is that the element of choice is already there before you even add in the limit on MID use. The choice is "do I use this item now or in the next encounter?". The current system adds layer of overall limits per day and can create a climate where players hoard item use.

It's hard for me to say if this houserule is balanced. Players can nova with daily powers and then nova with daily items in the next encounter. That's the most obvious scenario I can see. I just don't know if that's going to be overly abusive.

Why INT? max(1, LVL/3) gets nearly equal results (1-10) and is fair.

I like this much better. INT is what I came up with quickly, and could be a fun way to differentiate INT from DEX (dex gets the nice side benefit of initiative bonus). Your way does seem more fair though.