Considering replacing paladin with generic holy knight type class

[uv23]

There are three primary religions in my campaign, all of which are well suited to having an order of holy knights (LG, LN, LE) and rather than create a new prestige class, I am considering replacing the paladin class with a lawful based archetype that would suit the setting.

Has anyone else done this? I'd like to see what other people have done. Right now, my main dillemma is deciding whether in fact the members of these orders can join the order right off the bat (core class as mentioned above) or whether they are drawn from the ranks of the elite military. I'm leaning towards the core class replacement.

 

[Steven McRownt]

I must say that i don't like them very much, but perhaps you could look for inspiration at some of the PrCs in Defenders of the Faith.
Consacrated Harrier,Holy liberator, Knight of the middle circle and templar can make the job.

Steven McRownt

 

[uv23]

I actually have Defenders of the Faith. But as I mentioned, I'm more intersted in a core class replacement. Prestige classes have never sat that well with me, especially for basic archetypes.

Edit: another reason is that IMO it would be unbalancing (and just plain wrong) to allow paladins as a core class, but force near identical counterparts in the LN and LE realm to wait until they qualify for a prestige class.

 

[Steven McRownt]

Uhm... i actually think that even the paladin should be a prestige class... The problem is that on the other way you will simply multiply the core classes (why blackguard a PrC?and Assassin?)

Steven McRownt

 

[uv23]

And so the stress begins.. mechanics can be such a pain

 

[Steven McRownt]

Anyway, let's start makin this knight as a class together!

As a base we cannot but think to Fighter Bab. To saves i would say just Will Good to take some more points to spend later on the CCE. Good will saves reflects their inner strenght, and their sense of duty.

Class Skills: let's start with 3 per levels + Int. We want them more versatile than a standard fighter, isn't it? so three SkP should be enough (later on we can decide to make for 4 sk.p.)

Craft (Weapons and Armors), Ride, Concentration*, Knowledge (religion, nobility, heraldry), Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Orientation, Swim, Gather Information, and Appraise (Weapons and armors**

*it depens if they will cast or not
** it could be a class bonus on these, instead of a class skill.

First question: do they have spells? If not just think at the core paladin or the core alt.Ranger by Monte Cook and then add them 4 bonus feats, one for each spell levels we don't give them.

Powers:
No: Turn Undead, Lay on Hands, Divine Health, Cure Disease.

Yes: Divine Grace, Aura of courage, Smite Evil (PhB)

More powers: Immune to charm, fear and compulsion. Combat Sense (DotF).

That could be a good starting point.

Steven McRownt

 

[uv23]

Keep in mind this is an officer of the church, rather than a noble warrior. They should for all intents and purposes, be quite similar to a paladin, keeping in mind they can be of any lawful alignment.

My campaign setting has a strong emphasis on religion and politics in that most of the major players are nations backed by, created by or controlled by a church. As far as the lawful evil church goes, they're more intersted in control and defining the world in their image rather than eating babies. So if you envision a Knights of Takhisis kind of group then you're going in the right direction.

So anyways getting back on track. A good balance of law and religion based abilities with a reasonable emphasis on the religious aspect of the archetype.

Since we're talking core class, I definitely think it should have a good fort and will save. This would represent the military training as well as the strength of mind and will gained through religious indoctrination/education.

hit die d10

class skills look good though I'd drop gather information and add handle animal

no lay on hands and no cleric spells.. i like to keep magic with the magic users rather than proliferating it among the classes (way too much of this already IMO)

I think smite chaos would be good (theres a hefty law vs chaos dynamic in the ampaign setting) or rather, a "smite infidel" type ability that targets clerics and holy knights of any other faith.. supernatural ability

can you remind me what combat sense is again?

Thanks for your input by the way! It would be great if through working together and with other ppl, we could cook up something tasty.

 

[Thorvald Kviksverd]

It might prove useful to decide which ability scores you would like to encourage higher scores in (besides the obvious combat related ones of STR, DEX, and CON), and then tie a special ability's effectiveness into them as is done with the current Paladin.

Wisdom: Some type of protection from chaos perhaps. Maybe an additional bonus to save versus certain charms, mind affecting attacks, or illusions--to represent his rigid discipline and penchant for order.

Charisma: Some type of morale benefit for followers of the faith within a certain radius. Perhaps the ability to inspire followers in combat--even to the point of fanaticism (whirling dervishes, berserkers, etc...).

As an additional restriction, even though he may initially be of any Lawful alignment, if he later changes he will suffer penalties and restrictions similar to those faced by a traditional Paladin who strays.

Anywho, just a few stray thoughts.

 

[Rowenstin]

I´m working on for a campaing setting I´m developing at the moment. The paladin class will be replaced with a more generic "champion" class than can be of any alignment but true neutral; that dictates the powers that can be chosen, the spells available and the companion he will call. For example, a neutral good champion can get Smite Evil and Lay on Hands and have a celestial horse while a Lawful Evil can have Smite Chaos and Aura of Despair and ride a skeletal (or even axiomatic) mount. Of course, those are not the only powers they get, but you get the point. And yes, it´s difficult to balance it but I like the idea.

 

[Steven McRownt]

Combat sense

Combat Sense. Page 66 of DotF (knight of the middle circle)

Designating a single opponents in combat (a la Dodge) you gain some (increasing) bonuses to AC and to Attack.


Smite Infidel could do the job, but it has to be defined or otherwise will become too powerful (to an holy champion every person who'se not strictly following his faith could be seen as infedel)

And if we think to their powers perhaps at the beginning let's start from a low tone (HD d8, just one good save) and see the results on the ClassConstructionEngine. It is always much easier add something later, instead of taking away

Steven McRownt