Considering..

[Bodah]

Within my groups next 1-2 games I plan on putting them up against a Red Dragon. My concern is that some of the CR's may be well.. off. Usually CR's are a good idea of what will be a challenge for a group, but Dragons usually have alittle more or less CR depending on how they are being DM'ed.

The group consists of the following: A 15th level Gnomish bard. A 16th level Sun Elf Bladesinger. A 19th level half celestial cleric (he's the only original surviving member, so he's got a few levels on the rest). Thats the usual group, occasionally we have a 15th level aasimar paladin as well, however he shows up at random. Anyway, I am trying to get some feedback on what age category of Red Dragon would be enough to give them a serious challenge, but not be overwhelming. By CR alone I was considering an adult Red Dragon all the way up to an Old Red Dragon. I also plan on playing this Dragon the way I feel dragons should be played.. In another words he will likely be ready for an encounter and will rely on most of his abilities and advantages. Rather than just hack away at the characters in melee. So if I could get some feedback on to what others around here feel would be an appropriate age category for the Red Dragon I would really appreciate it. If you feel you need to know more about the characters or how I plan the encounter to go down then by all means, ask. I will try to answer as best as possible.

 

[Bodah]

Anyone? I thought this *might* be the wrong forum for this.. however it is.. 'all things monster' anyway, I'd appreciate a response from anyone as soon as possible, my game is this afternoon.

 

[Krishnath]

Well, your party's average character level is 16,5 (the aasimar pulls it up, being a LA +1 race), So I say an Adult Red Dragon (CR 14) with between 2 and 6 class levels depending on how tough you want the encounter to be (each class level increases the dragons CR by 1). I suggest going with either sorcerer or fighter levels. Sorcerer levels stack with the dragons innate spellcasting, plus it gets a familiar (and thus a spy). If you go with fighter levels however, the dragon get's several bonus combat feats, plus a not to shabby HD.

Or, instead of adding a class to the dragon, you could add a template. Half-Fiend dragons are very, very, nasty. And the dragon retains it's d12 HD, but gets more skill points per HD, not to mention cold resistance...

Either way, do not be surprised if one of the characters are killed, but at their levels, they should have access to raise dead or ressurrection, so don't worry. And if you would end up with a TPK, the Book of Vile Darkness, has two very usefull templates that allows the PC's to keep playing as undead (corpse and bone templates), you could even make an adventure out of the PC's attempting to find a way to become alive again...

Anyways, happy hunting

 

[demiurge1138]

Krishnath, you are very, very sinister. I like that whole "becoming alive" thing. Only problem is that most of the gamers I know are such powergamers that they'd stay dead just for the ability increases.

Demiurge out.

 

[Gez]

Krishnath, you are very, very sinister. I like that whole "becoming alive" thing. Only problem is that most of the gamers I know are such powergamers that they'd stay dead just for the ability increases.

It depends. The gnome bard, for example, may well regret his Con bonus to HD...

I would use an Adult Red Dragon in your case. Dragon CRs are undervalued, it is really CR 15 or 16. With one level of sorcerer so he could cast 3rd level spells, most notably dispel magic if the party got a lot of buffing (he could have used his familiar to spy at them, sharing a detect magic spell to determine that).

 

[Krishnath]

Demiurge: I mentioned those two templates specifically for two reasons. 1, they characters become either intelligent zombies (with the corpse template) or skeletons (with the bone template). 2, they have next to no stat changes, and give next to no new abilities and are only LA +1 templates (the CR for a bone or corpse creature remain unchanged).

In other words they gain next to nothing, and if they are still reluctant to find a cure, have the paladin lose his abilities or have the players start to really feel it when the NPC's start to refuse to talk to them or down right hunt them

Gez: Hah, I threw a CR 20 dragon against a party with an average level of 18, and only suffered one character death (an elf shade shugenja/shadowdancer). Never, ever, underestimate the power of a PC's party that is armed to the teeth, and never underestimate a wizard who has 4 Horrid Wilting memorized (with an additional 2 on scrolls).

Later,