Consolidating Craft Skill and Proffesions

[satori01]

Too many skills are just redundant in D&D, Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana I am looking at you!

Craft and Profession skills also seem to be prime examples as well.
Do we really need to have a Craft: Bowmaking AND Profession: Bowyer?
As I am sure most of us have experienced, one of those skills is generally not take, usually the Profession skill, as for some unfathomable reason not every class gets Profession.

Frankly I think we should do away with Craft skills, and convert them to Profession skills. Professions I think give a more solid sense of character background and they are more open ended than Craft Skills.

I would say you could eliminate a lot of other skills by just opening up a list of areas a Profession skill can cover. Do you need the skill Use Rope, when you have ranks in Profession: Sailor or Profession: Mountaineer?

 

[RPG_Tweaker]

My solutions:

Spellcraft assumes the role of K:Arcana.

Craft continues to be the skill governing creation. From building bows to painting, composing music, or even writing novels.

Profession does not have subcategories. It represents how successful a character is at running any business. It covers such subskills as financing, logistics, growth, and managing day-to-day minutiae.

 

[Nyeshet]

My solutions:

Spellcraft assumes the role of K:Arcana.

Craft continues to be the skill governing creation. From building bows to painting, composing music, or even writing novels.

Profession does not have subcategories. It represents how successful a character is at running any business. It covers such subskills as financing, logistics, growth, and managing day-to-day minutiae.

That's an interesting idea, but how does that translate for Profession (herbalist) or Profession (scribe) or profession (lawyer) and so forth? Herbalists grow herbs or find them, but that would not be part of a business. Scribes write page after page of text. They do not create alphabets, parchment, inks, etc - they buy the latter two, perhaps. Lawyers do not create laws, they argue their relevance, meaning, use, etc. Craft (laws) could be an interesting skill, however.

Your version of Profession sounds more akin to Profession (merchant) or Profession (businessman) and so on. It does not cover everything Profession was meant to cover: Services that do not produce finished products. That said, I wouldn't mind Professions being individually fleshed out a bit - at least the more common &/or useful ones (such as ones that grant synergy bonuses - although I admit that none do in core d20 3.5e for some reason).

 

[Celebrim]

Too many skills are just redundant in D&D, Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana I am looking at you!

Redundant? Spellcraft has a very clear province. Knowledge (Arcana) can't be used for anything for which you can use a spellcraft check. You don't know anything about the practice of casting spells if you only have Knowledge (Arcana), but on the other hand you might now alot about how to cast a spell without understanding why it works.

The two are as distinct of skills as Computer Programmer, Theoretical Phycist, Civil Engineer, and Electrician. Theory vs. practice.

Knowledge (Arcana) is one of my favorite skill checks to ask for as DM because it deals with the how, why, and what of just about anything supernatural. It is the catch all skill for recognizing and knowing about supernatural creatures or powers, knowing the effects of curses and how they can be broken, knowing how magic works and what places or times might be particularly conducive to one ritual or another, lost lore and secret knowledge, the functioning of truenames and numbers of power, numerology, astrology, and the other means by which divinitions can be attempted, and so forth. In other words, just about any time I need to introduce some plot device, I can call for Knowledge (Arcana) and have a player feel useful for revealing some arcano-babble or another meant to keep the plot moving.

I find that keeping skills narrow increases the value of having lots of skill points, and I find that that is a good thing.

Craft and Profession skills also seem to be prime examples as well.

You are right that Craft and Profession have a problem, but I think that you are wrong that the problem is that they are redundant. The problem is that they - and especially profession - are so poorly defined by the rules. Long before they made 'Complete Class XLI', I would have liked to see them have devoted an entire book to the Profession skill.

1) What does each profession skill let you do besides help NPC's make money?
2) Are some professions more or less profitable than others (do you make more money as a lawyer or physician than a beggar)? How does that work?
3) When you have profession (sailor), what advantages if any does that give you when using (for example) the balance skill, climb skill, use rope skill, or wilderness lore skill? If it doesn't help you do any of these things, what does it do? Is it for example possible to have a great deal of ranks in Profession (sailor) and yet be a very poor sailor because you can't do anything that a sailor is expected to do?
4) Ought not there to be feats available only to those with certain ranks in various professions, allowing them to perform extraordinary acts within those professions just as for example warriors have feats that allow them to perform extraordinary martial acts?

I imagine many players would think such a book boring, but many players overlook that there are a great many skillful things an adventure might be called on to do that are ONLY doable with ranks in a certain profession. One of the most common is Profession (Boater). No other skill substitutes. If your called upon to handle a canoe, rowboat, or raft only Profession (Boater) can help you navigate over treacherous waters. Arguably, this one skill alone is as important as Ride, and that's one of what is literally scores of possibly useful professions.

I'd certainly get more use out of such a book than anything WotC has printed in the last two or three years.

Do we really need to have a Craft: Bowmaking AND Profession: Bowyer?

No we don't. As far as I know, Profession (Bowyer) doesn't exist. Profession handles work which doesn't produce durable goods. If there is a physical product, there should not be a Profession skill. The production of goods is handled by the Craft skill.

There are a few exceptions, and these might be an errors, such as Profession (Cook). You can make a good arguement that Profession (Cook) should be replaced by Craft (Cuisine) or some such, but I don't care that much either way.

As I am sure most of us have experienced, one of those skills is generally not take, usually the Profession skill, as for some unfathomable reason not every class gets Profession.

I agree that this is problem. I think that every class ought to get Profession. There is no particular reason why Ride should be a fighter class skill, and Profession (Boater) should not.

I think more people would take profession skills if they had some idea what they were getting, but since the DM's have no idea what profession skills do either, they tend to err on the conservative side and not let them do much of anything. Hense, no player has a reason to take them.

 

[satori01]

My point is precisely why have two skills like Knowledge : Arcana and Spellcraft, when they can be rolled almost seamlessly into one skill. Generally a person with one will have the other. As a DM that likes to give tangible rewards for skill checks, anything that increases the impact of skills, and the breadth of players ability to use skills is a good thing.

Just as many people use a Sneak skill for Hide and Move Silently, or how Survival acquired other skills powers, so I think the same can be reasonable done for Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft.

Overall for skills I would like to see more detailing, and 'leveling' up of their powers as people get more ranks. The only thing I really liked about the Epic rules was the fact that it was assumed at a certain point that massive amounts of skill ranks could simulate magical effects.

Why shouldnt a master of jumping be able to jump of water, like you can in Oblivion, or a master sword smith be able to create magic items w/o spells, or a master at the art of slipping knots be able to avoid magical chains.

 

[Mighty Veil]

In my games I use 3 craft skills: craft weapons & armors, alchemy, and mundane. For profession I use a homebrewed rules based off D20 Modern's version of the skill. More ranks you have at each level, more gold you get.

I'm curious to see how Star Wars Sagas will merge its skills.

 

[Aaron L]

I've had many characters with Knowledge: Arcana but not Spellcraft. As an example, Fox Mulder would have had a high K:A, but no Spellcraft (or very little), knowing about monsters and supernatural events, but not how to use or make or identify spells. Actually, most adventurers should have K:A as well as K: Dungeoneering as a matter of their profession.

As for Craft and Profession... is there really a need to combine them? Are they really cluttering things up in your experience?

 

[Glyfair]

Do we really need to have a Craft: Bowmaking AND Profession: Bowyer?

No, and it's a good thing we don't (at least officially). There is no "Profession: Bowyer."

I think there is a pretty clear line between Profession and Craft. Craft is making something, Profession isn't.

Could we combine them? Not without giving them the same stat tied to them.

Could some skills be combined? Yes. As long as they are almost always used together and use the same stat (Hide & Move Silently being the archetypal example). Of course, if you don't want every character who is good at hiding to be good at moving silently...

 

[Celebrim]

My point is precisely why have two skills like Knowledge : Arcana and Spellcraft, when they can be rolled almost seamlessly into one skill.

Oh, I don't disagree that they can be rolled into one. Any two skills can be rolled together. Heck, we could roll all the skills into one skill called 'skillful' and have it resolve every non-combat challenge.

My point is that there is a cost that comes with increasing or decreasing the number of skills, and I think you need to choose how many skills exist carefully. In the case of decreasing the number of skills the cost is that you are making it less valuable to have many skill points. Decreasing the number of skills is a big boon to fighters or clerics, but is not a boon at all to rogues or wizards. When you roll together two skills as important as Knowledge: Arcana and Spellcraft, you are reducing the number of useful skills in the game and anyone with skill points can be skillful in a greater percentage of all the challenges in the game. You can easily see this in the case of the hypothetical 'skillful' skill above. With only one skill in the game, alots of skill points are meaningless and intelligence can be a dump stat for almost anyone.

Generally a person with one will have the other.

Not necessarily. A professional treasure seeker (say a Rogue) might well benefit from Knowledge (Arcana) but have no real use for Spellcraft. There are all sorts of characters in fantasy that have a great deal of knowledge of supernatural things, but no real ability to use spells.

As a DM that likes to give tangible rewards for skill checks, anything that increases the impact of skills...

And that is my point entirely. Reducing the number of skills might not accomplish the goal you seem to think it will.

...and the breadth of players ability to use skills is a good thing.

Well, this is the opposite danger. If you have too many skills, then no one character can be truly skillful, and if the DM used all of them then there is a good chance no character could pass the challenge. As a result, the tendancy is for some skills to become disused by concensus. My suggestion is that you only fold skills together if one of them is never used. I would avoid folding together skills which are already useful and commonly used.

I would also say that I think D20 has about the right number of skills.

Just as many people use a Sneak skill for Hide and Move Silently, or how Survival acquired other skills powers, so I think the same can be reasonable done for Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft.

Just so that you understand that there is a cost to folding together Listen and Spot, Hide and Move Silently, and so forth.

Overall for skills I would like to see more detailing, and 'leveling' up of their powers as people get more ranks. The only thing I really liked about the Epic rules was the fact that it was assumed at a certain point that massive amounts of skill ranks could simulate magical effects.

Why shouldnt a master of jumping be able to jump of water, like you can in Oblivion, or a master sword smith be able to create magic items w/o spells, or a master at the art of slipping knots be able to avoid magical chains.

I agree.

 

[delericho]

Craft and Profession skills also seem to be prime examples as well.
Do we really need to have a Craft: Bowmaking AND Profession: Bowyer?

As others have mentioned, there is no Profession: Bowyer. In fact, the line is very clear - anything that makes something is a Craft, while any industry that doesn't is a Profession.

It would, of course, be possible to roll these together into a Job skill, but I don't think it's necessary.

In fact, the only skill I consider too narrow is Use Rope, which I feel should be rolled into Survival or Sleight of Hand.

There are some skills that could be merged:

Listen and Spot become Notice
Hide and Move Silently become Sneak
Open Locks becomes part of Disable Device
Craft and Profession, as above
Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana
Diplomacy and Intimidate become Influence

and so on. However, on balance, I think I wouldn't favour any of these, except perhaps the Open Locks re-assignment.

I would also recommend the addition of a Run skill, as this makes chase mechanics significantly easier to implement. And also a Drive skill, which here would indicate control over any non-living vehicle (the Drive/Pilot split is useful for d20 Modern, but probably too fine for D&D).

I would also argue that certain 'everyman' skills should be on every skill list: Climb, Swim, Run, Ride, Listen, Spot, Craft, Profession, Perform and Knowledge: Local. And I would include at least one other Knowledge on every skill list, although the precise assignment would vary. If, that is, class skills are even retained in the new edition.