Constitution based class

Possibly. That is why granular HD per level might be a good idea. A larger number of smaller HD would benefit more from higher Con bonus, so the class is encouraged to put Con as a primary stat. While a lvl3 fighter with 14 Con gets 3d10+2 worth of healing 3x7=21HP on average, a lvl3 "Brick" would have a total 9d4+2 or 9x4=36HP on average. Even if 6 of those dice are used for healing, we still have 3 left for "tactical" use. Even more so, while raising Con to 16 would give the fighter just 1 extra HP per level, the "Brick" would get 3 times as many. And the more the bonus, the more HD would remain available for use other then healing.
That doesn't seem to add up.

Do you mean the Fighter gets 3x(d10+2) and the brick gets 9x(d4+2) ?
So the brick is getting three times as many HP from their Con bonus as any other class?

That strikes me as again putting a lot of pressure on the class to max out Constitution.


Although these classes benefit from having some other stats as well (as most classes do), they still (at least from a mechanical PoV) benefit most from one. For a fighter i.e. getting your "primary" of either Str or Dex higher, will always benefit you more (to hit and damage) then raising your Con first. A 20 in Str/Dex would help you hit harder and more often, while +3 Hp per level od 20 Con (if starting at 14) even at lvl 20 would give you only 60 extra HP. Yes the save is good, but then again, +3 isn't all that much when you are already proficient in Con.
OK. Are we talking class concept or optimization here?
Are you looking for a specific in-game image that just doesn't fit with a high-constitution Ranger, Barbarian or Fighter? Or is your concern just producing a mechanically powerful class?

I don't see how would the "Brick" benefit from one stat only. Even at lvl 10 with maybe 5-6 HD available for "burning" per day (if at full strength), considering the average adventure day of 6-9 encounters per long rest, we still have less then 1HD use per encounter. That means our PC will still need a solid investment in either Str or Dex to fight, and possibly a 3rd stat, for skill use (Int or Wis based, depending on which skills would he/she want to use on regular basis).
At level 10, you will have 30HD to use. You mentioned that they were similar to the Battlemaster's superiority dice?
 

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The first one is easy. Self sufficient, hardy characters, that base their feats (as in acts, not the mechanical feat from PHB) on exceptional stamina/endurance/will power.

I don't think you quite understood where I was going with that. To meet the qualifications for #1, you have to start with a social role.

An example might be, "In the Dango culture, they have this idea of peace keeper which is something like the role of police. But unlike police, the peace keeper isn't expected to oppose evil or criminal behavior with force. Instead, the peace keeper resists criminality passively by simply being an obdurate immovable obstacle. He can't be hurt. He publically shames the criminal, he calls on the criminal to repent, he blocks the criminals way, and when the criminal lashes out and tries to attack him, he simply ignores the attack. If forced to protect himself, he prefers restrained violence to brutality. He sits on the foe and uses his bulk to control the foe. He shoves his enemy with his belly. He jams his foe up against a wall. Being forced to use a weapon on a living foe, or to injure a living foe is considered weakness in the peacekeeper tradition. Only against things completely opposed to life, does the peacekeeper result willingly to force."

And if you do that sort of world building, and you start incorporating related ideas in many different cultures, what you may discover after a while is you've defined an outlook and a social role that no core class suits well. So then you might decide to create a Brick class with a subclasses of "Peacekeeper", "Brute", "Unyielding", and "Juggernaut" based on different ways cultures in your campaign have built on this tradition of guys that can take a hit and laugh it off.

In other words, you are starting with the idea of the class as, "What does this class do when it isn't an adventurer? How do they belong in the community?", and then moving from that toward, "When a player who gains setting mastery wants to make a character of that background, what abilities relevant to adventuring would they have?"

The second one....... i'm not so sure how would the "Brick" work as part of a team. One of the reasons (aside from level progression and resource management) why i posted here actually. I would like more experienced people's (especially with more genre and edition/general RPG savvy) opinions and critical analysis on the subject.

The second one is not based so much, yet, on how the Brick would work as a part of the team, but on how the Brick concept has worked in stories. How they work as part of the team is a balance issue you address in the mechanics of the class. But right now, we haven't got to mechanics. We are still trying to figure out what the mechanics need to represent.

Some examples of Bricks in literature might be The Boy who Couldn't Shudder, The Five Chinese Brothers, Bobby from King of the Hill, Mongo from Blazing Saddles, and the X-Men villains Juggernaut and the Blob. I think your biggest problem in implementing this class idea well is that Consitution is the most passive of the 6 ability scores, and the heroes and villains that are defined by it are defined by their passivity and their inaction. The typically win by doing nothing until their enemy just exhausts themselves or frustrates themselves into a self-destructive tantrum. Indeed, that may indicate that causing foes to have self-destructive tantrums might need to be part of the Bricks suite of powers, at least in some subclasses.

A typical story of this form will have the hero be unaware that anyone is trying to harm him. The villain gives him a cup of poison, which he drains in a single draught and asks for more. After the sixth cup he declares that it is the sweetest wine he's ever been offered. He goes to bed, and the villain attacks him in the dark with axes. But in the morning the hero wakes up, stretches and says that he's never had a more restful sleep, and further that he dreamed he was given a fine massage in the night that has cured him of back pain. And so on and so forth, until in terror the villain runs away or yields, or becomes so enraged that he stamps his foot through the floor and falls into hell, or tears his beard so hard that he tears himself in half.

You don't actually need a brick class until someone comes to you with a story like that, and says, "I want to play this character.", or if you want to have characters like that in your setting.

Hmm..... working as a subclass of a fighter might actually work.

To be honest, I think it would probably work better than making a brick class because "tough fighter" is probably the character most players will be thinking of when they imagine being a brick. They won't be thinking of a character that solves problems by being simply passively obdurate. They'll want a character that can be bash things while shrugging off most blows, which isn't necessarily at the core of what being a "brick" is actually about as a concept distinct and separate from "Fighter". The vast majority of tough guys in fiction are simply tough fighters.
 
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Do you mean the Fighter gets 3x(d10+2) and the brick gets 9x(d4+2) ?
So the brick is getting three times as many HP from their Con bonus as any other class?
That strikes me as again putting a lot of pressure on the class to max out Constitution.

Pretty much the idea behind the class, though as mentioned the HD and their number maybe should be objects of scaling. Such as d4 turning to d6 at/after level 10, and their number decreasing from 3 per level to 2 per level.

OK. Are we talking class concept or optimization here?
Are you looking for a specific in-game image that just doesn't fit with a high-constitution Ranger, Barbarian or Fighter? Or is your concern just producing a mechanically powerful class?
Both. I want the class to be both thematic and provide opportunities to optimize if a player chooses to do so. In other words, i don't a "dud" class, that is just there for flavor.

At level 10, you will have 30HD to use. You mentioned that they were similar to the Battlemaster's superiority dice?
You have 30 of them, yes. But a great deal of them will be used for self healing. A level 10 brick with 2 ASI worth of Con increase and a standard array, can get to 125 HP. If the player decides to "brick" like a "tank", the PC will take quite a bit of damage, depending on encounter. And unlike the barbarian's rage, there is nothing here to mitigate damage. So, at the end of the day we may count a large HP loss, especially if the local healer uses heals on more vulnerable party members. If we reserve 1/2 the total HD for self healing (playing a self sufficient tough guy), that will leave us 15 HD for tactical use, or roughly 2 per encounter. And let's not forget the rejuvenation method that prevents us from easily recovering those HD, with only long rests, unlike the Battlemaster's recovery on short rests. And unlike BM's recovery, we will never get our full complement of HD's back.
 

I don't think you quite understood where I was going with that. To meet the qualifications for #1, you have to start with a social role.

.....And if you do that sort of world building, and you start incorporating related ideas in many different cultures, what you may discover after a while is you've defined an outlook and a social role that no core class suits well. So then you might decide to Brick class with a subclasses of "Peacekeeper", "Brute", "Unyielding", and "Juggernaut" based on different ways cultures in your campaign have built on this tradition of guys that can take a hit and laugh it off.

In other words, you are starting with the idea of the class as, "What does this class do when it isn't an adventurer? How do they belong in the community?", and then moving from that toward, "When a player who gains setting mastery wants to make a character of that background, what abilities relevant to adventuring would they have?"

Ah i see. Well..... there are three "literary" characters that might play well with the concept.

1. The first one i see is Merlin, as portrayed in 1981 Excalibur. Here we get a caster that seams to exert himself every time he "bares" the Dragon's Breath, or the charm of creation and his ability to withstand it, seams to drop as he gets older.

2. The second example would be the Dunedain rangers as presented in the LoTR books. This would work well for explorer type characters, but also maybe limited healers ("The houses of Healing" chapter)

3. And finally, there is this old Slavic fairy tale from a book my late father found when i was a still in elementary. The book was torn out and missing pages, but there was enough of it to salvage good portions of it and most of the stories. One in particular drew my attention and to this day is one my favorite tales overall and definitely my favorite slavic tale that i know of. I don't know the title (as the first several pages are missing), but the protagonist is a young man or boy, called the "Green Branch".

In short, there is this elderly king, with 3 beautiful daughters (duh) and an old hermit friend. The king wants sons, but he and his wife are too old to have children. One night as all of the daughters are of age and attend a party, they get kidnapped by mysterious forces. The kings is in despair, but the old hermit helps him, by giving a magical grape vine. The queen plants it, waters it for 3 days before sunrise and on the third the vine gives a beautiful grape fruit that the queen eats, and immediately becomes pregnant with a boy. The child matures and grows fast (like a green branch) and is very strong. The make the long story short, he becomes a dragon hunter and tracks his sisters to 3 dragons with multiple heads. His strategy in fighting the dragons is an attrition based hand to hand duel (these are slavic dragons, anthropomorphic and without wings) from morning to high noon, thus exhausting them so much until they are all winded and sweaty. He would then lure them to the entrance of the forest where he would chant something along the lines of "Sister branches, give to me refreshment, to the dragon darkness", at which point a wind would animate the forest, the branches would start hitting the dragon in the eyes, but the protagonist being human and shorter, would actually recover and dry his sweat. After he has taking his breath he would gather all his force and hit the dragon so hard, that the creature would get berried knee/waist/neck deep in the ground and then proceed to cut of the dragon's heads.
 

Ah i see. Well..... there are three "literary" characters that might play well with the concept: Merlin...the Dunedain rangers... and "Green Branch"

Interesting. I would have never thought to put those characters together, and none of the three characters fits the sort of character I was envisioning when you made your first post.

Merlin I would consider a sorcerer or possibly a druid, or both. Gygax had him as a multi-classed M-U/Druid. Merlin is an archetypal wizard, but the old version of Merlin is definitely more of a sorcerer in D&D terms than a wizard, as the origin of his powers is his unusual parentage and bloodline. It's hard to know what to make of the charm of making. I'd place it as a powerful unique ritual in D&D terms. It's certainly not a spell in the normal sense, unless in D&D terms it is the language you use to cast 'Wish'. But ok, I can kind of see where you are going there in that unlike GURPS the default D&D spellcaster is not explicitly powered by stamina/fatigue. So presumably we could have a class that traded HD for spells, perhaps losing the Wizards arcane refresh ability? (But then again, is 'take a short rest and get back spells' not this same idea?) But, if this class is going to be full caster sufficient to capture the idea of Merlin, then what are we to make of the rest?

For the Dunedain, I would have thought there class was obvious. They are all obviously 1e cavaliers. We encounter them as armored knights on horseback, and they are referred to as knights. They are all nobility - the class can only be taken by those who have some royal blood in them. They never fight with ranged weapons. They have a code of honor and they are defenders of civilization from the wild lands around them. What else could they be? ;) I jest slightly, because the D&D ranger class was supposed to be inspired by the Tolkien Ranger, but its actually only inspired very loosely by 'Strider' - the assumed guise of Aragorn that we first meet him in when the hobbits are introduced to him. He actually spends very little of the book acting like Strider, and rather more of it wearing a mail habergeon, riding on horseback, and acting like a king. And he spent a considerable portion of his life as a "black knight" in the courts of Rohan and Gondor, where we would have never thought of him as a D&D ranger at all. Aragorn is very much more than a D&D ranger, and what the D&D ranger has become through the alchemy of other RPG systems and video games is very much not Aragorn or any other ranger.

Still, while Aragorn is the "hardiest of all mortal men", and capable of epic feats of endurance, he doesn't actually seem to be defined or powered by stamina, and there is even less evidence in the case of other rangers. Faramir acts very much like a cavalier. The rangers seem mostly defined by a combination of royal bloodline and prowess of arms - not things we associate with Constitution. And it's very unclear how we'd create one class for both Merlin and Aragorn.

Also, if it isn't clear, Aragorn's "the hands of the King are the hands of a healer" has the exact same mythic origin as a Paladin's "lay on hands" ability and ability to cure diseases. Both the creator of the D&D paladin and Tolkien are channeling the medieval myth that the true King that God had ordained could be known by the fact that his touch could heal. Aragorn isn't merely a Cavalier. As the True King, he's also a Paladin.

As for Green Branch, he seems fit the general motif of Giant Killer that appears in fairy tales. The idea that you recount of neither side being able to defeat the other until one side becomes fatigued isn't one I've seen before, but is pretty cool. In D&D terms, "Green Branch" appears to be a sorcerer of some sort, given his magical heritage and his apparent ability to cast spells ("Control plant?" "Control winds?"). This would make him more like your earlier Merlin example, except that Green Branch is also a mighty warrior that beats up dragons with his bare hands. (But maybe he knows spells like "Body Weaponry", "Bull's Strength", and "Stoneskin"? Maybe he is multiclassed?)

But this brings us a long way from your original post "a possible new 'fighter' or 'non caster' class". Two of your examples are spellcasters, one of which - Merlin - is iconicly so. And none of your examples seems to me defined by the proposed class's defining mechanic, nor do any of the three characters use their expenditure of stamina (if that is what they are doing) to power the same sort of skills. That suggests to me a link between these characters that is at best at the level of a Feat allowing you to spend HD in some fashion (each has a different class, but the same Feat), or just that they all share in common that they have Constitution score use a system wide fatigue mechanics.
 

I agree with what everybody else has said about starting with a strong story hook and building a class around that. Starting with the idea of "let's make Constitution primary" will lead to a class with a weak story hook that will not capture anyone's imagination.

Mechanically, I'd like to point out that allowing a class to blow through their hit dice is backwards and defeats the purpose of hit dice. Hit dice are meant to make hit points into a per-encounter ability while extending the adventuring day. If you let people burn hit dice for bonuses, they'll actually want to take long rests MORE often.
 

I agree with what everybody else has said about starting with a strong story hook and building a class around that. Starting with the idea of "let's make Constitution primary" will lead to a class with a weak story hook that will not capture anyone's imagination.

Mechanically, I'd like to point out that allowing a class to blow through their hit dice is backwards and defeats the purpose of hit dice. Hit dice are meant to make hit points into a per-encounter ability while extending the adventuring day. If you let people burn hit dice for bonuses, they'll actually want to take long rests MORE often.

No more so than daily spell slots.
 



Interesting. I would have never thought to put those characters together, and none of the three characters fits the sort of character I was envisioning when you made your first post.

It's maybe because my idea streams from the concept of stamina as a resource :)

The way i see them connected is, (aside from actually using their life force) that HD seam to be the closest to stamina we have in 5E. How does Merlin use stamina in Excalibur? He seams to almost completely exhausts himself when casting the charm of making. How does Aragorn use it? He seams to "labor hard" during hunts and healing that again leaves him exhausted. How does the Green Branch use it? Well in his case, it's a bit different. He seams to be using his stamina to match the dragon's might and then again uses a unique system to regenerate it, so he can deliver the final blow.

Anyways, sorry for the late reply, it was a very hectic week here......
 

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