Conversion: Litterally or with a Grain of salt

[Leopold]

Ok while doing the conversion for Night Below for my group i ran across a post in the Bits N' Pieces forum I just had to laugh at. Someone was complaining that Finslayer (+ to hit and damage lots of underdark baddies) was too powerful. I then showed them the converted aboleth that was lurking in one of the towers (did i mention there are multiple baddies like this?)

New3, M Aboleth Cleric12 Necromancer14 CR 33; Size:H Type Aberration; HD (8d8)+(12d8)+(14d4)+136; hp 259; Init +3 (+3 Dex, +0 Misc); Spd Walk 10', Swim 60'; AC 18 (flatfooted 15, touch 18), Tentacle (Natural/Primary) +31/+31/+31/+31 0'/S (1d6+11 20/x2 Neither G ) or ; SA: Mucus Cloud(Ex),Transformation(Ex),Psionics(Sp),Enslave(Su),Spontaneous casting,Rebuke Undead 8/day,Summon Familiar; Vision: Darkvision (60') AL: LE; Sv: Fort +18, Ref +13, Will +29; Str 32, Dex 17, Con 18, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 20

Skills and Feats: Concentration +15, Knowledge (Underdark) +7, Listen +17, Spot +17; Alertness,Armor Proficiency (Heavy) (1x),Armor Proficiency (Light) (1x),Armor Proficiency (Medium) (1x),Combat Casting,Iron Will,Scribe Scroll,Shield Proficiency,Simple Weapon Proficiency
Possessions: 1.0 Tentacle (Natural/Primary), 0.0 Outfit (Artisan's/Huge),
Spells: Cleric: (6 /6 /5 /5 /4 /3 ) 0-
Wizard: (4+1 /5+1 /5+1 /4+1 /0 )



now this is SANS:Feats, real stats, skills, equipment, etc. Base critter with random stats.

AND ITS A CR of 33!!! HOLY MOTHER!

Now the question comes up: Do you take the book litterally or do you play with the numbers a bit. Heck in the first encounter alone you get a CR6. First level pc's fight 5 level 1 fighters and 1 lvl 2!

 

[rounser]

Play with the numbers. A 3E character class level or monster is usually significantly more powerful than it's 2E equivalent.

 

[Leopold]

Play with the numbers. A 3E character class level or monster is usually significantly more powerful than it's 2E equivalent.

so do you cut levels across the board for some of these guys? If you do then some of the spells and so forth don't add up..

 

[rounser]

so do you cut levels across the board for some of these guys? If you do then some of the spells and so forth don't add up..

That's the tricky part I guess - compromising between what they need to be able to do for plot reasons, and what is an acceptable amount of opposition for the PCs.

Bear in mind that critters with a pile of spell-like abilities sometimes get their CRs over-rated in a stand-up fight unless you use them optimally - sneaky tactics, buffs and all.

 

[Jerrid Al-Kundo]

As someone that has spent a lot of time converting a lot of material: A pound of salt.

A shot or two of Black Label helps on occasion as well.

 

[hong]

so do you cut levels across the board for some of these guys? If you do then some of the spells and so forth don't add up..

It looks like you'll _have_ to cut levels. A 12th level cleric/14th level necro is an Epic-level character, for starters, even before you add the aboleth abilities.

Basically, levels don't translate directly from 2E to 3E, because the multiclassing mechanics are totally different. A 6th/7th/8th fighter/thief/mage in 2E is a middling-level character in 2E, maybe equivalent to a 10th or 12th level single-classed character. The same character is Epic-level in 3E.

 

[Darkness]

Heck in the first encounter alone you get a CR6. First level pc's fight 5 level 1 fighters and 1 lvl 2!

Remember: In 3e, you can (and often should) make such combatants Warriors rather than Fighters (the leader could be either, though).

It looks like you'll _have_ to cut levels. A 12th level cleric/14th level necro is an Epic-level character, for starters, even before you add the aboleth abilities.

Basically, levels don't translate directly from 2E to 3E, because the multiclassing mechanics are totally different. A 6th/7th/8th fighter/thief/mage in 2E is a middling-level character in 2E, maybe equivalent to a 10th or 12th level single-classed character. The same character is Epic-level in 3E.

No, these are not epic-level characters before race is added (though the first one is close ).

When using the Conversion Guide, these two amount to the following:
The aboleth has 18 (14 + 12/3) levels to divide among his character classes.
The fighter/thief/mage has 12 (8 + 7/3 + 6/3) levels.

When using the RPGA guidelines (which I prefer since they are take into account that not all 2e classes are equal, while all 3e classes are, and since they also take better care of the multiclass problem), they look like this (assuming they have the minimum xp for their level):
Aboleth: 17 levels
F/T/M: 9 levels


Myself, I'd also do what the DMG does and reduce a creature's levels by its base CR (i.e., the aboleth in the examples above would be a CR 17 or 18 creature).

 

[hong]

Re: Re: Conversion: Litterally or with a Grain of salt

No, these are not epic-level characters before race is added (though the first one is close ).

When using the Conversion Guide, these two amount to the following:
The aboleth has 18 (14 + 12/3) levels to divide among his character classes.
The fighter/thief/mage has 12 (8 + 7/3 + 6/3) levels.

Well, yes. The point is that an Xth level character in 2E, and an Xth level character in 3E are different things, even if their levels are numerically equal. This is what Leopold was asking about.

I prefer to play things by ear, rather than relying on fixed formulae. Speaking of which, isn't it impressive that my estimate of the level for the F/T/M was so close to what's in the book? I am just too cool.

 

[Leopold]

so there is a formula when converting those multiclassed monsters..i figured as much..bookmarked this thread..can anyone point me to that conversion guide?

 

[BButler]

Yes, please post a link to the RPGA guide. I've got the WOTC guide, but I've never seen a guide by the RPGA.