D&D 5E Converting characters recommendations

[jgsugden]

But if you are the type of player who doesn't define his or her character by what they can or cannot do... but rather who their character is, the loss of certain abilities doesn't matter...

Once again, painting a picture that character and capability are independent isn't a complete story. There are PCs were the personality is less connected to the mechanics than other characters, but all characters have some facets of their personality driven by what they can and can't do - and almost all have significant elements of their characters influenced by the mechanics. Application is very different than theory, here.

It is really common to hear people on these boards poo-poo over the importance of mechanics. A lot of people say, "I can have fun in any system because I enjoy ROLE playing, not ROLL playing." While that can be entirely true, it is not the difference between role and roll that I am discussing. I am discussing how a game system influences the development of the personality and traits of a PC, and how a change in systems can drastically undermine the developed traits by negating the basis for the trait.

I could write a lot on this topic, but I do not have the time. People will do as they do, but I dealt with moving to and from 4E more than I wanted - and I can honestly say that none of the translations/conversions were the right approach.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Once again, painting a picture that character and capability are independent isn't a complete story. There are PCs were the personality is less connected to the mechanics than other characters, but all characters have some facets of their personality driven by what they can and can't do - and almost all have significant elements of their characters influenced by the mechanics. Application is very different than theory, here.

It is really common to hear people on these boards poo-poo over the importance of mechanics. A lot of people say, "I can have fun in any system because I enjoy ROLE playing, not ROLL playing." While that can be entirely true, it is not the difference between role and roll that I am discussing. I am discussing how a game system influences the development of the personality and traits of a PC, and how a change in systems can drastically undermine the developed traits by negating the basis for the trait.

I could write a lot on this topic, but I do not have the time. People will do as they do, but I dealt with moving to and from 4E more than I wanted - and I can honestly say that none of the translations/conversions were the right approach.

Right. For you it was important that mechanics have more of a match for the character to maintain a consistency and feel. I get that, and understand why you feel that way. But that's not true of everyone. I myself do not need a perfect match of the mechanical expression of my character between editions to feel as though I'm still playing the same character. Now does it help if it does? Certainly. I won't disagree with that. If I was playing a rogue in 4E, converting it to a rogue in 5E due to the mechanical similarities makes all the sense in the world. But it's certainly not a requirement-- at least not for me (and I'm pretty sure not for some other people either.) If the mechanical expression of the character in 5E is relatively in the ballpark of 4E, then I'm good. If I was playing a Warlord in 4E... I'd be perfectly happy converting him to a Battlemaster in 5E and feel no difference in who the character was-- even though he no longer can perform a Wolf Pack Tactics maneuver or use an Inspiring Word on people.

Look, I certainly understand your position and know why you believe what you believe. All I'm saying though is that despite what you say... your belief isn't an absolute. For some of us, it isn't a requirement that the mechanical expression of every ability we have line up in a one-for-one basis between the editions for our characters to feel as though they are the same. So making an absolute statement of "Don't convert. Start over. You can't make your character in the new edition" isn't really all that helpful because there's a possibility that the person on the other end of the statement doesn't believe in the same things you do. You can certainly suggest that it could be difficult to recreate the character if the mechanics are further out there and don't match up very well with what 5E has... but there's no guarantee that is in fact going to be true. And quite possibly, the character can be converted quite easily based upon what the player feels is actually important.

 

[aramis erak]

My advice: Don't convert. It isn't worth it. Play out the game to a good stopping point in the current edition and then start a new game in the new edition. I've converted from Basic to AD&D, from AD&D to 2E, 2E to 3E, 3E to 3.5E, 3.5 to Pathfinder, 3.5 to 4E, Pathfinder to 4E, ... but not 4E to 5E. It just doesn't translate well. I regret converting to 4E from 3.5 and Pathfinder, too.

4E is such a different game that converting to or from it is basically an entire rewrite. You're better off just doing something entirely new rather than something 10% old.

Quoting for truth...

Plus, come into 5E KNOWING that it is, in almost all ways that matter, unlike 4E. Your 4E knowledge will be nothing but a hindrance in playing 5E.

 

[S'mon]

Saying that your dedication to role playing puts you above this problem is quite a different thing than dealing with the actual situation. If you're switching to or from the 4E mechanics and you are using those mechanics, it will impact what you can and can't do. A swashbuckling and plucky hero that suddenly has his capability to swash his buckles lost is no longer a swashbuckler. That impacts "who" the character is as much as it impacts "what" the character can do.If I were in this situation, I would stay in the current edition of the game, design a conclusion to the storyline to give it a fitting conclusion that won't be tarnished by a bad edition transition, and then start a new campaign with new characters. Starting a new game in the same setting with new characters is not going to cause problems - it is just the awkard stretching, cramming and reimagining that are required to take something that works fundamentally differently and cram it into a new edition.

This is very much my experience. I've done mid-campaign conversions before and they have never worked well, even 3e to C&C. Converting always damages the campaign and it tends to fade away pretty fast. As GM I've learned to stick with the current system to the conclusion of the campaign. If I want to use a new system I've learned to start a new campaign with new PCs.
So my advice to the GM here would be to stick with 4e, conclude the campaign at a good stopping point, and then start a new one with new PCs & 5e rules, which can be set in the same world.

 

[jgsugden]

Right. For you it was important that mechanics have more of a match for the character to maintain a consistency and feel. I get that, and understand why you feel that way... Look, I certainly understand your position and know why you believe what you believe...

With due respect, no, you don't. Your argument is clear, but it clearly doesn't smell what the Rock is Cooking. Your argument inherently indicates that you don't get what I'm trying to convey.

As much as we like to talk the talk that role playing is an exercise that is independent of the rules, the rules impact the story of our characters and influence how their personality develops. People raised in inner city Detroit, rural China, the slums of Cairo and the tundra of northern Russia CANNOT be the same. Why? Because the their environment impacts their development. This is also true of D&D characters, and there is nothing bigger in their environment than the rules that govern their existence.

If you convert to or from 4E, the DNA of the character changes. You can still do the change, you can still try to emulate the same personality, but because the way your character interacts with the world is fundamentally different, the choices your character makes have drastically different meanings - and that alters the character fundamentally. It is also true of changes to and from other editions, but there is no larger change in D&D than to and from 4E. It is easier to go from Basic D&D to 5E than from 4E to 5E.

 

[Rabbitbait]

With due respect, no, you don't. Your argument is clear, but it clearly doesn't smell what the Rock is Cooking. Your argument inherently indicates that you don't get what I'm trying to convey.

Interesting how sometimes people assume that if you don't agree with them then that can only be because you don't understand the obvious logic of their argument.

I've converted characters between editions before and it worked fine. A wee bit wobbly to start with in combat as we got the hang of the new mechanics but it certainly did not change the personalities of the characters.

So, I counter your argument with an example. I understand what you are saying. I don't agree with it.

The main reason I would say to start fresh is that it is harder to get the hang of the new mechanics of the game when you start at a higher level.

 

[DEFCON 1]

If you convert to or from 4E, the DNA of the character changes. You can still do the change, you can still try to emulate the same personality, but because the way your character interacts with the world is fundamentally different, the choices your character makes have drastically different meanings - and that alters the character fundamentally. It is also true of changes to and from other editions, but there is no larger change in D&D than to and from 4E. It is easier to go from Basic D&D to 5E than from 4E to 5E.

And I'm telling you... no it doesn't. Not for me it doesn't. For you, yes. Yes, the mechanics and what the character can do are entwined in the DNA of the character. But just because YOU can't separate the two doesn't mean it's IMPOSSIBLE for someone else to do it. You may not be able to BELIEVE it's possible, but that doesn't matter. It IS possible do to because it's all about HOW ONE PLAYS.

I understand you perfectly. You believe that what you believe is correct. But since it's all just personal belief and experience... what YOU believe isn't objectively TRUE. And in this case, it 100% ISN'T. You can SAY it is all you want... but sorry, your opinion isn't fact.

 

[jgsugden]

We've said our piece. You're arguments still do not reflect an understanding of my point. We're not going to get anywhere.

 

[Kalshane]

I've converted characters from 2e to 3e and more recently I've been playing in one game that converted from PF to 5E and am running another game that made the same conversion. As others have said, it depends on the characters and the players in question. For the 2E to 3E conversion, I was actually happy with how that turned out because the resulting character was closer to my original vision.

For my PF Paladin, he went from bashing people with his shield for damage to bashing them with his shield to knock them on their butts, but otherwise plays almost exactly the same.

For my own PF game, it took a little more doing and I actually had to give a couple of PCs some custom magic items to help replicate some of their iconic abilities and create a custom class for Alchemist (though we probably could have made it work with a Transmuter/Mood Druid multi-class and some tweaking of wild shape). Other than the alchemist, the problem character was the Dual-Cursed Oracle of the Dark Tapestry, but I worked together with the player to build him a GOO Warlock/Lore Bard that kept the feel of the original character (his Inspiration has been re-flavored as manipulating fate) and he's pretty happy with the results. Meanwhile, the fighter, barbarian/druid, wizard and rogue all converted pretty seamlessly.

ETA: The show Critical Role on Geek & Sundry is a prime example of a conversion not detracting from a campaign. They converted to 5E from PF right before they started broadcasting it and other than the occasional rules hiccup and the DM having to work with the player of his gunslinger to convert the class it doesn't seem to have had an adverse impact on their game.

 

[Prism]

I have converted my long time character from Role Master to AD&D 2nd edition to 3.0 to 3.5 to 4e and now 5e. It works for us just fine. The biggest change was 3.5 to 4e as my character felt I lost a fair bit in play. 4e back to 5e worked really well