Converting First Edition Monsters

Cleon

Adventurer
Gygax was good at vanilla - alot of 1e stuff was very vanilla, but I guess it was early days. Can you see the Champion of Laogzed stats on dndbeyond? they are here - public version here if you can't see.

Yes, I think I've stumbled upon that one before. It's not that far off from my stab at a Chieftain, which I guess isn't surprising. Well, except I wonder what they were smoking to give it Wisdom 23!

Maybe give a leader type a Feat? Inspiring Leader? Resilient? Slasher? Charger?

I was thinking maybe some kind of minor Frothing Frenzy reaction ability (like if it gets wounded it moves 10 ft. faster and can make a bite or claw attack as a bonus action for a few rounds), or maybe a rechargeable War Stench that affects a wide radius around the Trog and inspires trogs inside it to extra ferocity or tenacity (and is still revolting to non-trogs who catch a whiff of it).

Problem is, I don't want to make the chieftain that much tougher than it already is.

Plus, my aim is something one can imagine an "average" troglodyte chieftain having. Spitting acid like the Champion of Laogzed is more something an adventurer-type troglodyte would do, or a somewhat magically adept religious fanatic, not a run of the mill Boss Trog.
 

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Casimir Liber

Adventurer
Well - a War Stench that might work like Inspiring Leader feat (but without the 10 minute preamble)? That's sorta chiefy (both leader versions could have)? PCs will notice the stench smells different....

Or maybe each leader-type gets 1d3 martial techniques (Maneuvers) of Battle Master archetype? Mix it up a little...?

I missed the wis 23 - that's funny.
 


Cleon

Adventurer
Battle Master. The leader has 1d3 maneuvers listed under the "Battle Master" archetype.

Nah, Battle Master just boosts its own abilities while I was thinking more inspiring its fellow troglodytes to extra effort. If I were going to model it on a Martial Archetype then Banneret or Primal Leader would be more appropriate.
 

Casimir Liber

Adventurer

So....Rallying Croak?


The Trog chief uses Second Wind with an extra effect, it can choose up to three other troglodytes within 60 feet. Each one regains hit points equal to the leader's HD, provided that they can see, hear or smell the leader.
 

Casimir Liber

Adventurer
Also - was copying out acid archer to put on dndbeyond and noticed

Damage Resistances acid, poison
Condition Immunities blinded, poisoned

also pondered - did you want it immune to blindness....?
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Also - was copying out acid archer to put on dndbeyond and noticed

Damage Resistances acid, poison
Condition Immunities blinded, poisoned

also pondered - did you want it immune to blindness....?

Well I dithered a lot over that and kept on removing the immunity to blindness from the Working Draft only to replace it again.

The Acid Archer only had immunity to blindness because the Giant Schizomid has it, but that was mainly due to it being eyeless, which doesn't apply to the Acid Archer. Although presumably the Blindsight plays a role in its ability to ignore its lack of sensory input!

Another factor was I didn't want the Archer to blind or damage their companions with "friendly fire" although that isn't such a concern once we made it a ranged weapon attack as opposed to a line or cone attack.

Was also toying with the idea of tweaking the Acid Squirt special attack by adding "Acid arrows are immune to this attack" as another way of achieving that.

Hmm… I currently prefer it without immunity to blindness.

Do you have any preferences?
 

Cleon

Adventurer

So....Rallying Croak?


The Trog chief uses Second Wind with an extra effect, it can choose up to three other troglodytes within 60 feet. Each one regains hit points equal to the leader's HD, provided that they can see, hear or smell the leader.

That would add to the DM's bookkeeping though, and it needs to be something worth using in the heat of battle.

Extra bookkeeping is a possible issue for some of the ideas I mused over for War Stench. For example, if it gave a bunch of Trogs a d4 "Stench Dice" they can spend over the next minute on one attack roll or something you need to keep track of which of the Trogs have the dice and whether they spend them.

Worthwhileness may be more important - if the Chieftain gives up an attack and "stench dice" to allow a minion to get a reaction attack, a la Commander's Strike, that is likely a lot less effective than if the Chieftain just attacked itself.

I'd rather keep it simple if we're going to add on any more abilities, like it gives a bunch of trogs a free reaction attack with a claw or bite, like the Inspiring Surge feature.

The Trog chief uses Second Wind with an extra effect, it can choose up to three other troglodytes within 60 feet. Each one regains hit points equal to the leader's HD, provided that they can see, hear or smell the leader.

Remember that the Trog Chieftain isn't a Fighter so doesn't have Action Surge or Second Wind to link to a Battle Master-styled manoeuvre. Well, not unless we give it those special abilities as well which'll make the stat block even more elaborate.
 

Casimir Liber

Adventurer
Well I dithered a lot over that and kept on removing the immunity to blindness from the Working Draft only to replace it again.

The Acid Archer only had immunity to blindness because the Giant Schizomid has it, but that was mainly due to it being eyeless, which doesn't apply to the Acid Archer. Although presumably the Blindsight plays a role in its ability to ignore its lack of sensory input!

Another factor was I didn't want the Archer to blind or damage their companions with "friendly fire" although that isn't such a concern once we made it a ranged weapon attack as opposed to a line or cone attack.

Was also toying with the idea of tweaking the Acid Squirt special attack by adding "Acid arrows are immune to this attack" as another way of achieving that.

Hmm… I currently prefer it without immunity to blindness.

Do you have any preferences?
Yeah - I think w should ditch the immunity to blindness. Bit confused about the tweaking by adding "Acid arrows are immune to this attack" ....
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Yeah - I think w should ditch the immunity to blindness.

Updated the Acid Archer to remove the immunity to blindness.

Bit confused about the tweaking by adding "Acid arrows are immune to this attack" ....

Dang it, I meant "acid archers" rather than "acid arrows." i.e., make the action:

Acid Squirt (Recharge 4-6). Ranged Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, range 40/120 ft., one target. Hit: 2d6 acid damage and the target must make a DC 11 Dexterity saving throw, failure results in blindness for 1d6 rounds, on a success the target is only blinded for 1 round and takes half damage. Acid archers are immune to this attack.
 

Casimir Liber

Adventurer
Updated the Acid Archer to remove the immunity to blindness.



Dang it, I meant "acid archers" rather than "acid arrows." i.e., make the action:

Acid Squirt (Recharge 4-6). Ranged Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, range 40/120 ft., one target. Hit: 2d6 acid damage and the target must make a DC 11 Dexterity saving throw, failure results in blindness for 1d6 rounds, on a success the target is only blinded for 1 round and takes half damage. Acid archers are immune to this attack.
aaah that makes sense noiw....and yes I think it is a good change/adjustment
 

Casimir Liber

Adventurer
Okay, regarding the troglodyte leader-types - yes I can se ewhere you're coming from - some action that gives the trog troops a little buff and leave it at that. A few of the ones spitballed look okay..what are you firming on...
 


Cleon

Adventurer
Okay, regarding the troglodyte leader-types - yes I can see where you're coming from - some action that gives the trog troops a little buff and leave it at that. A few of the ones spitballed look okay..what are you firming on...

I'm not in a hurry. The basic Chieftain is perfectly functional as-is.

However, I have just realized that the standard Stench ability has "On a successful saving throw, the creature is immune to the stench of all troglodytes for 1 hour." That means that if a creature saves against a normal Trog's DC 12 Stench then they'll be immune to the Chieftain and Warchief's stench despite the latter being way more powerful creatures. That doesn't seem right.

Perhaps we should upgrade the stench abilities of all the higher-ranking trogs. Various editions/versions of the troglodytes featured stenches that:
  • lasted up to 1 minute
  • saving only protected you against the stench of the trog whose stench you saved against.
  • stench acted as an olfactory alarm to other trogs.
  • stench sickened non-trogs within a 30 foot radius.
Maybe give the higher-challenge trogs a stench that affects a wider radius (maybe 20 ft. for guards, 40 ft. for warchiefs, 60 ft. for chieftains?), lasts longer (to be decided), and alerts troglodytes within 100/200/300 feet that battle has started?

I'm not convinced we need to add an additional combat beanie to that, since the normal trogs getting to attack potentially poisoned opponents is likely enough of an advantage, but I suppose we could give the Warchief/Chieftain an Inspiring Croak that allows some of its minions a bonus claw or bite attack, or maybe give the Chieftain an Inspiring Attack ability that is equivalent to an Action Surge.

However, that seems a bit "gilding the lily" rather than something they actually need.

Although something that they trogs do need is a sample Shaman! I might stat one of those up. Probably will aim for Challenge 3, to fill the gap between the CR 2 Warchief and CR 4 Chieftain.
 

Casimir Liber

Adventurer
Funnily enough I was musing on shaman ideas (1e shamen just had a limited range of cleric spells). Question is whether some sort of priest or maybe a sorceror - though none of the sorceror lineages really gell with what I'm thinking....

Or warlock - fiend patron...but none of the pacts really gell either
 
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Cleon

Adventurer
Funnily enough I was musing on shaman ideas (1e shamen just had a limited range of cleric spells). Question is whether some sort of priest or maybe a sorceror - though none of the sorceror lineages really gell with what I'm thinking....

Or warlock - fiend patron...but none of the pacts really gell either

I was just going to go Cleric.

3E Troglodytes have favoured class: cleric and in 5E their highest mental ability is Wisdom, so it seemed appropriate.

Indeed, their WIS 10 is the only human-level mental stat a standard-issue Trog has. With INT 6 and CHA 6 they wouldn't make great Wizards or Bards!
 

Casimir Liber

Adventurer
I was just going to go Cleric.

3E Troglodytes have favoured class: cleric and in 5E their highest mental ability is Wisdom, so it seemed appropriate.

Indeed, their WIS 10 is the only human-level mental stat a standard-issue Trog has. With INT 6 and CHA 6 they wouldn't make great Wizards or Bards!
fair points all. ....grave domain?
 


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