Converting First Edition Monsters

[freyar]

Agreed to all that. I think I'd go for Energy Drain to make it a bit more unique, but I could actually see giving it Energy Drain and Con damage/drain, like a real vamp.

 

[Cleon]

Agreed to all that. I think I'd go for Energy Drain to make it a bit more unique, but I could actually see giving it Energy Drain and Con damage/drain, like a real vamp.

I didn't considered giving it both.

Hmm…

Overall I'd prefer one or the other, but don't really mind which, so Energy Drain is fine.

Incidentally, I'm imagining these as something of a "missing link" between the Ixitxachitl Vampire (which had most of the traditional Vampire powers including regeneration and charm gaze) and a mundane Ray.

The next question is how it delivers the Energy Drain. The original monster has the drain attack delivered "if the ray is able to cover the victim" so I'm thinking it should have Improved Grab plus an Energy Drain that's based on Grapple Checks, like the 3E Vampire's Blood Drain.

Energy Drain (Ex): A vampire pungi ray can suck vital energy from a living victim by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains energy, and the victim gains one negative level each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the vampire pungi ray gains 5 temporary hit points.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a vampire pungi ray must hit with its slam attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can attempt to energy drain the following round.

Presumably if we go for the Blood Drain plus Energy Drain approach we'd basically give it the same slam+energy drain and grapple+blood drain as a standard Vampire, although I'd still like to add Improved Grab to its roster.

 

[freyar]

I don't think it's necessary to give it both Blood and Energy Drain, so your proposal will work for me.

By the way, we need to change the abilities a bit. I'm ok with keeping the physical abilities the same, but we need to boost Int at least to 3 and Cha I'd expect to 10 or 11. I guess we won't have save DCs to worry about with this approach, so we probably don't need to do more than that.

 

[Cleon]

I don't think it's necessary to give it both Blood and Energy Drain, so your proposal will work for me.

Updating the Pungi Ray Working Draft.

By the way, we need to change the abilities a bit. I'm ok with keeping the physical abilities the same, but we need to boost Int at least to 3 and Cha I'd expect to 10 or 11. I guess we won't have save DCs to worry about with this approach, so we probably don't need to do more than that.

I'd be fine increasing the Charisma but don't see that increasing its Intelligence is necessary.

 

[freyar]

Ehh, fair enough. It can be a "dumb" magical beast if you like. There's not really much else to fiddle with mechanics-wise, is there?

 

[Cleon]

Ehh, fair enough. It can be a "dumb" magical beast if you like. There's not really much else to fiddle with mechanics-wise, is there?

Yup!

So shall I update the Working Draft with Charisma 10 and we'll declare the mechanical elements finished and move on to polishing off the flavour text?

 

[freyar]

Yes, let's go ahead.

Tactics: Like non-magical pungi rays, vampire pungi rays usually hunt by lying camouflaged on the seafloor and waiting for prey to blunder into its poisonous spines. However, vampire pungi rays are more aggressive, also willing to use their energy drain to bring down larger, stronger prey.

 

[freyar]

Any thoughts on these tactics?

 

[Cleon]

Yes, let's go ahead.

Tactics: Like non-magical pungi rays, vampire pungi rays usually hunt by lying camouflaged on the seafloor and waiting for prey to blunder into its poisonous spines. However, vampire pungi rays are more aggressive, also willing to use their energy drain to bring down larger, stronger prey.

Updating the Pungi Ray Working Draft.

Hold on a mo - we still haven't updated the Challenge Rating.

The addition of energy drain and improved grab plus the upgrade to Magical Beast is worth at least another CR, and I'm thinking maybe the basic Pungi is undervalued at CR 2. It's noticeably deal nastier than some CR 2 creature in the SRD like the Large Viper Snake and Medium Animated Object. Is it that much weaker than, say, the CR 3 Hell Hound?

How about comparing the Vampire Pungi to an energy draining creature? Is it significantly stronger or weaker than the CR 3 Wight.

Wait a second! I've just realized something. The Blackmoor energy-draining version of the Pungi Ray has Six Hit Dice, not Four like the AD&D regular version, plus its AC is better, being 6 rather than 7.

How about we upgrade the Vampire Pungi to 6 HD and make its AC 16? That'd definitely justify making it CR 4. The OD&D version has an AC one point better than an OD&D Sting Ray, which has AC 15 in 3E.

Also, the Blackmoor Pungi Ray has a swim speed of 6 so I guess we ought to cut the Swim speed to 20 feet.

That said, if you prefer keeping the regular Pungi Ray's 30 ft. swim speed I'd go along with it.

As for the regular version's Challenge Rating, upon reflection I'm OK keeping it as a "strong" CR 2 like we decided earlier.

Any thoughts on these tactics?

Hmm… including the above changes, how about:

Hit Dice: 6d10 (33 hp)
Speed: Swim 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (-1 size, +7 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+12
Attack: Spines +7 melee (1d12+2 plus poison)
Full Attack: Spines +7 melee (1d12+2 plus poison) and ram +2 melee* (1d6+1)
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +3
Skills: Hide +3* (+9 on sea floor, +19 if buried), Listen +7, Spot +6, Swim +10
Feats: Alertness, Skill Focus (Hide)
[Its 6 HD give it another feat - maybe Weapon Focus (spines) or Ability Focus (poison) ?]
Challenge Rating: 4 [?]
Advancement: 7-9 HD (Large); 10-18 HD (Huge) [?]

A mottled-green ray at least twice as wide as a human is tall. A dozen or so spines that resemble stalks of seaweed protrude from its back.

Vampire pungi rays are deadly relatives of the pungi ray, named after their fearsome supernatural ability to drain life-energy from their victims. They possess even more lethal poison spines than their mundane cousins.

Vampire pungi rays camouflage themselves in the silt and seaweed of the seabed and attack creatures who stumble upon them. They are extremely aggressive, driven by their eagerness to feed of life-force. A vampire pungi ray will attack a creature too large for it too eat, since it is able to feed entirely by energy draining.

A typical vampire pungi ray is 6 feet long, excluding its tail, and 15 feet wide from tip-to-tip of its broad pectoral fins. Their back spines normally cover a 3-foot by 4-foot area. They generally weigh about 2,000 to 3,000 pounds.

Combat
A vampire pungi ray hides on the seafloor and tries to impale any living creature that passes over it with its venomous spines. It then tries to grapple a victim and energy drain, relying upon its spines to defend itself from attack. Vampire pungi rays tend to fight to the death rather than flee - they swim too slowly to have much chance of escaping a losing fight.

* * *

Energy Drain (Ex): A vampire pungi ray can suck vital energy from a living victim by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains energy, and the victim gains one negative level each round the pin is maintained. The DC is 13 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the vampire pungi ray gains 5 temporary hit points.

Poison (Ex): A vampire pungi ray's spines are poisonous. Injury, Fortitude DC 15, initial and secondary damage 1d8 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +2 racial bonus.

 

[Cleon]

I forgot to add the "The DC is ?? for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based." bit to the Energy Drain. It has been amended.