Converting monsters from Dragon magazine

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Yeah, let's make the Vomiting Reflex a separate SQ.

I think I prefer to go with Devour #2, though actually shouldn't we also allow the victim to try to escape the grapple like in the SRD swallow whole rule too? It's more 3.x standard, and I worry that devouring a PC early in combat makes it a bit too hard to escape, yet at the same time the ihagnim itself is not so tough. It just seems like a bit of a glass cannon.

Hmm, how about Str 7, Dex 7, Con 18, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 8? They don't seem particularly charismatic to me. Also, is there a reason the working draft has/had Int 8 in it?

I don't think we really need an advancement section other than the bit in devour about gaining HD.
 

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Cleon

Legend
Yeah, let's make the Vomiting Reflex a separate SQ.

Agreed.

I think I prefer to go with Devour #2, though actually shouldn't we also allow the victim to try to escape the grapple like in the SRD swallow whole rule too? It's more 3.x standard

But it does follow the 3.5 standard for Swallow Whole, as per the SRD Purple Worm:

Swallow Whole (Ex): A purple worm can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of a smaller size than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 2d8+12 points of crushing damage plus 8 points of acid damage per round from the worm’s gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 17). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Gargantuan worm’s interior can hold 2 Large, 8 Medium, 32 Small, 128 Tiny, or 512 Diminutive or smaller opponents.​

The Ihagnim needs to hit with a tentacle attack, then succeed at its Improved Grab grapple check to grab hold, and then needs to succeed at a second grapple check to Devour. If an opponent escapes the grapple the Ihagnim can no longer attempt devouring.

and I worry that devouring a PC early in combat makes it a bit too hard to escape, yet at the same time the ihagnim itself is not so tough. It just seems like a bit of a glass cannon.

There's not much we can do about that and keep compatibility with a bag of devouring, it IS pretty much a glass cannon.

Hmm, how about Str 7, Dex 7, Con 18, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 8? They don't seem particularly charismatic to me. Also, is there a reason the working draft has/had Int 8 in it?

The original monster had an Intelligence score equal to its Hit Dice, which also determines its speed in astral space as per standard astral travel rules.

So an AD&D Ihagnim with 8 Hit Dice also has Move 8 and Intelligence 8.

So maybe Str 7, Dex 7, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 8 for the abilities?

That'd require NA +13 to provide AC 20, assuming we exact match the Dragon Bestiary version's Armor Class 0.

Its Move 8" would be Fly 20 ft. (perfect) in 3E terms, but only works on the astral plane.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
I actually meant the part I marked in red in the general Swallow Whole rules:

If a creature with this special attack begins its turn with an opponent held in its mouth (see Improved Grab), it can attempt a new grapple check (as though attempting to pin the opponent). If it succeeds, it swallows its prey, and the opponent takes bite damage. Unless otherwise noted, the opponent can be up to one size category smaller than the swallowing creature. Being swallowed has various consequences, depending on the creature doing the swallowing. A swallowed creature is considered to be grappled, while the creature that did the swallowing is not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is noted in the creature description), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + ½ its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again.

So once the opponent is in the stomach, it should be able to get out by winning another grapple check. For some reason, the SRD monster descriptions always (or pretty much always) leave that part out.

I can go for those abilities, NA +13, and Fly 20 ft (perfect). I'd be ok with letting the fly speed work outside of astral. If you don't want to do that, I think we need to give it a slow land speed.
 

Cleon

Legend
I actually meant the part I marked in red in the general Swallow Whole rules:
So once the opponent is in the stomach, it should be able to get out by winning another grapple check. For some reason, the SRD monster descriptions always (or pretty much always) leave that part out.

Oh right, I suspected you were referring to the "escape to mouth with a grapple check" rule for Swallow Whole. As you point out, that's not usually included in the monster description, presumably for reasons of space.

I vaguely recall the 3.0 Fiend Folio (2003) including that rule in swallowing monster's descriptions, but that was about it.

Let me check…

…yup, it was in Fiend Folio, and it added another grapple check to completely escape the maw, e.g.:

Fiend Folio (2003) said:
A successful grapple check allows the swallowed creature to climb out of the stomach and return to the century worm’s maw, where another successful grapple check is needed to get free.​

However, the issue is academic since the Ihagnim doesn't use a mouth to Swallow Whole. It envelops victims with its fluid body like an Amoeba.

Let's just follow the standard formatting and leave that bit out.

I can go for those abilities, NA +13, and Fly 20 ft (perfect).

Updating the Ihagnim.

I'd be ok with letting the fly speed work outside of astral. If you don't want to do that, I think we need to give it a slow land speed.

I'd rather it be helpless and unable to survive outside the Astral. If forcible transported to somewhere with normal gravity, such as a typical Prime Material world, I think an Ihagnim would collapse into a dying blob. Like a beached jellyfish without the support of seawater.

It's one of the few creatures that's actually native to the Astral Plane, so I think we should make effort to emphasize how this differs it from a non-Astral monster.
 


freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Magenta is good! Though I'm surprised a mod even came by the CC forum!

And I'm ok with all that for the Ihagnim. You make good arguments.
Shall we put in the Vomiting Reflex? And did we agree on the HD advancement from Devour? I think that looked ok.
 

Cleon

Legend
And I'm ok with all that for the Ihagnim. You make good arguments.

Good!

We'll need to work out the details about the Astral Dependency and there are a couple of other SQs to nail down too.

Shall we put in the Vomiting Reflex?

Might as well.

And did we agree on the HD advancement from Devour? I think that looked ok.

I think we were more-or-less agreed on this.

Once an ihagnim has devoured creatures equal to its internal capacity (i.e. one Large creature, 1 Medium creature plus 12 Small creatures, or any other arrangement) it gains a Hit Dice. A 16 Hit Dice ihagnim that gains a Hit Dice splits into two 8 HD ihagnim instead of growing larger. Ihagnim can also grow by devouring other organic matter than living creatures or their corpses.

Except there was a question about how long it takes to gain the HD.

Maybe 10 minutes?

Once an ihagnim has devoured creatures equal to its internal capacity (i.e. one Large creature, 1 Medium creature plus 12 Small creatures, or any other arrangement) it grows in size, gaining a Hit Dice over the next 10 minutes. A 16 Hit Dice ihagnim that gains a Hit Dice splits into two 8 HD ihagnim instead of growing larger. Ihagnim can also grow by devouring other organic matter than living creatures or their corpses.​

Updating the Ihagnim.
 

Cleon

Legend
Okay, let's sort out the minor SQs first:

Dragon #89 said:
The thick, plasticlike bodies of ihagnim reduce all damage taken by blunt weapons to one-half of its original amount; sharp-edged weapons do normal damage. All ihagnim are immune to haste, slow, paralysis, hold, or charm attacks. Fire-based spells do half-damage; cold spells do normal damage and render the creature unable to attack (though it can still move) for 1-4 rounds thereafter. Psionic attacks do not affect ihagnim, and they cannot communicate with any creature, except each other.

The "blunt weapons do ½ damage" is basically the reverse of a skeleton's resistance to pointy weapons, so we could interpret that as Damage reduction 5/piercing or slashing or bump it up to DR 10/piercing or slashing.

Fire resistance 10 for the "fire-based spells do half damage"?

The sensitivity to cold looks pretty straightforward.

I'd be inclined to allow a saving throw, like so:

Sensitivity to Cold (Ex): [With Save] If an ihagnim takes cold damage, it must make a Fortitude save with a DC of 10 plus the amount of cold damage it received. If the save fails, the ihagnim reflexively absorbs its pseudopods back into its body, releasing any creature or object being grappled with its tentacles, and then cannot make tentacle attacks for the next 1d4 rounds.​

Although the original version didn't have a save:

Sensitivity to Cold (Ex): [No Save] If an ihagnim takes cold damage, it reflexively absorbs its pseudopods back into its body, releasing any creature or object being grappled with its tentacles, and then cannot make tentacle attacks for the next 1d4 rounds.​

Which do you prefer?
 

Cleon

Legend
Do we want to do something with this:

Dragon #89 said:
they cannot communicate with any creature, except each other.

Perhaps:

Incomprehensible (Ex): An ihagnim can only communicate with other ihagnim. Its cannot understand or be understood by any other creature, even if magic or telepathy is used to interpret its language.​
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
The purple 10 minute suggestion in Devour is fine.

DR 5/piercing or slashing seems good enough, along with resistance 10 to fire.
I think I'd like to leave the save off the Sensitivity to Cold. If the PCs figure it out, let them use it!

Could we just put the Incomprehensible bit in the flavor text?

Did you have suggested text for the gravity vulnerability?
 

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