Converting monsters from First Edition modules

[BOZ]

how about this?

Reflexive Sunder (Ex): Striking a horgar's body is like hitting a granite boulder, and may destroy manufactured weapons. Any character that strikes a horgar with a slashing or piercing melee weapon must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or the weapon takes 30 points of damage. The weapon's hardness still applies. The save DC is (Constitution? Strength?)-based.

not sure if the sentence about hardness is necessary? If I’m reading the table right, I set the damage to destroy any normal weapon on a failed save. Or maybe the damage should be a random number with the Strength bonus (which will almost always destroy a weapon anyway). Should I add a note that this does not provoke an attack of opportunity?

 

[Shade]

how about this?

Reflexive Sunder (Ex): Striking a horgar's body is like hitting a granite boulder, and may destroy manufactured weapons. Any character that strikes a horgar with a slashing or piercing melee weapon must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or the weapon takes 30 points of damage. The weapon's hardness still applies. The save DC is (Constitution? Strength?)-based.

not sure if the sentence about hardness is necessary? If I’m reading the table right, I set the damage to destroy any normal weapon on a failed save. Or maybe the damage should be a random number with the Strength bonus (which will almost always destroy a weapon anyway). Should I add a note that this does not provoke an attack of opportunity?

What table are you referring to?

30 points would indeed destroy any weapon other than a one-handed metal-hafted weapon made of adamantine (hardness 20, hp 20).

I'm not sure that this should be able to destroy an adamantine weapon outright. So maybe the suggestion of variable damage or a lower number would be appropriate.

 

[BOZ]

the table i'm referring to is on p. 158, which you seem to be familiar with already given your response. it is apparently repeated on p. 166.

OK, i'll entertain variable damage. let's see, Str 35 gives +12 damage bonus. so, let's say... 3d8+12? this will destroy most weapons most of the time, though some will survive the first hit (prompting most attackers to rethink using that weapon).

any thoughts on the saving throw?

 

[BOZ]

ALSO...

I’ll be adding this to the Combat section:
Acid Squirt (Ex): A horgar can fire a 20-foot line of acid once per round, that deals 20d4 points of acid damage.

Also, wondering, should we set a time limit as to how long its pools of acid remain after it leaves? Same as the “hot walls” maybe?

More things:

Need a range for Blindsight. And if we’re giving it Tremorsense, need a range for that too.

It has 33 skill ranks. Not sure which skills are appropriate, but maybe some of these will work:
Climb, Escape Artist, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Survival

Also, it has 11 feats. It should have limited combat capability, and it doesn’t qualify for many other feats. So, these are some which might not be inappropriate:
Alertness, Blind-Fight, Endurance/Diehard, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Point Blank Shot (and feats from associated tree), Skill Focus, Toughness (more than one maybe), Track, and Weapon Focus (acid squirt)

 

[Shade]

the table i'm referring to is on p. 158, which you seem to be familiar with already given your response. it is apparently repeated on p. 166.

Gotcha. I'm familiar with said table.

OK, i'll entertain variable damage. let's see, Str 35 gives +12 damage bonus. so, let's say... 3d8+12? this will destroy most weapons most of the time, though some will survive the first hit (prompting most attackers to rethink using that weapon).

any thoughts on the saving throw?

Hmmm...I'm almost tempted to think that adamantine should be immune to the sundering. Since it can bypass up to hardness 20, and hewn stone only has hardness 8, wouldn't it stand to reason that adamantine cuts right through to the "chewy center"?

Looking at it again, the save doesn't make much sense. If you make a Reflex save to avoid hitting the creature, and thus damaging the weapon, you wouldn't hit the creature at all. How would a character realize this until the weapon had already taken damage?

Maybe I'm reading too much into this...

ALSO...

I’ll be adding this to the Combat section:
Acid Squirt (Ex): A horgar can fire a 20-foot line of acid once per round, that deals 20d4 points of acid damage.

Sweet. How about adding splash damage to those near targets?

Also, wondering, should we set a time limit as to how long its pools of acid remain after it leaves? Same as the “hot walls” maybe?

That is a good idea.

More things:

Need a range for Blindsight. And if we’re giving it Tremorsense, need a range for that too.

How about blindsight 60 ft., tremorsense 120 ft.?

It has 33 skill ranks. Not sure which skills are appropriate, but maybe some of these will work:
Climb, Escape Artist, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Survival

I can definitely see Listen, Search, and Survival. Why would it care about moving silently? It's a tank! Escape Artist wouldn't be terrible useful, since it probably has great strength and size modifiers, right? Perhaps add Knowledge (dungeoneering)?

Also, it has 11 feats. It should have limited combat capability, and it doesn’t qualify for many other feats. So, these are some which might not be inappropriate:
Alertness, Blind-Fight, Endurance/Diehard, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Point Blank Shot (and feats from associated tree), Skill Focus, Toughness (more than one maybe), Track, and Weapon Focus (acid squirt)

Would Point Blank Shot and similar ranged weapon feats apply to a line? Since it qualifies for epic feats, I'd give it Epic Toughness (+30 hp) rather than Toughness. All the other suggestions seem appropriate.

 

[BOZ]

Hmmm...I'm almost tempted to think that adamantine should be immune to the sundering. Since it can bypass up to hardness 20, and hewn stone only has hardness 8, wouldn't it stand to reason that adamantine cuts right through to the "chewy center"?

do keep in mind that we are talking about a creature that has 5-foot thick stone skin though. I *guess* I could put in a line about this ability not affecting adamantine though, if it will help you sleep better at night. if I lower the damage enough that adamantine would not be damaged, then this ability will be pretty weak.

Meanwhile, how does the 3d8+12 damage sound anyway?

Looking at it again, the save doesn't make much sense. If you make a Reflex save to avoid hitting the creature, and thus damaging the weapon, you wouldn't hit the creature at all. How would a character realize this until the weapon had already taken damage?

Maybe I'm reading too much into this...

maybe.

the saving throw is, of course, up for revision or I wouldn’t be asking about it. I could argue in favor of the Reflex save, saying that while you do hit the creature, you manage to hold the blade a certain way or strike at a certain angle to keep it from being damaged. If that is not good enough, perhaps we can substitute a Fortitude save. I’m not that worried about it, as long as the player gets a chance to save his weapon. Keep in mind, you already have fire and acid damage to your weapon likely when striking a horgar… (and both of those allow saves for the weapon – I see a Fort save on the heat, and a Ref save on the slime. Does a Constitution-based DC make more sense than a Strength-based DC?

Sweet. How about adding splash damage to those near targets?

I might have to rethink the whole “line of acid” idea. here is the probable clincher: does a black dragon’s breath weapon cause splash damage? maybe i will make the Attack lines "---" and make this an SA only just for the sake of ease.

That is a good idea.

“The pools of acid evaporate in X rounds/hours.”- like so?

I can definitely see Listen, Search, and Survival. Why would it care about moving silently? It's a tank! Escape Artist wouldn't be terrible useful, since it probably has great strength and size modifiers, right? Perhaps add Knowledge (dungeoneering)?

Climb no good? I suggested Escape Artist (uncertainly) because it wriggles around like a worm, so who knows. Move Silently was a, what the hell who knows. Dungeoneering? Naw, it knows the Underdark like the back of its… slug.

How about: Listen +12, Search +10, Survival +13 ?

Would Point Blank Shot and similar ranged weapon feats apply to a line? Since it qualifies for epic feats, I'd give it Epic Toughness (+30 hp) rather than Toughness. All the other suggestions seem appropriate.

I thought Epic Toughness was +20? Good idea, regardless. How about, then:
Feats: Blind-Fight, Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Skill Focus (Survival), Track
Epic Feats: Epic Toughness (x4)

 

[BOZ]

Also, thought of this as I was re-reading back over the thread…

The horgar smells like the super-heated acid that it secretes from between its rock plates, somewhat like ammonia. The gases make other creatures' eyes water and irritate their mouths and nasal passages.

I think we were considering using this at some point, but discussion trailed off on it. Shade had quoted a section from the environment section of the DMG regarding how the stench of acid can affect characters. Maybe instead of dealing any damage though, it just nauseates creatures or something.

And updating in homebrews.

 

[Shade]

do keep in mind that we are talking about a creature that has 5-foot thick stone skin though. I *guess* I could put in a line about this ability not affecting adamantine though, if it will help you sleep better at night. if I lower the damage enough that adamantine would not be damaged, then this ability will be pretty weak.

I'd just make adamantine an exception, not lower the damage, since adamantine is an exception to the hardness rules to being with.

Meanwhile, how does the 3d8+12 damage sound anyway?

Sounds good!

the saving throw is, of course, up for revision or I wouldn’t be asking about it. I could argue in favor of the Reflex save, saying that while you do hit the creature, you manage to hold the blade a certain way or strike at a certain angle to keep it from being damaged. If that is not good enough, perhaps we can substitute a Fortitude save. I’m not that worried about it, as long as the player gets a chance to save his weapon. Keep in mind, you already have fire and acid damage to your weapon likely when striking a horgar… (and both of those allow saves for the weapon – I see a Fort save on the heat, and a Ref save on the slime. Does a Constitution-based DC make more sense than a Strength-based DC?

Constitution-based makes more sense, since the horgar isn't actively attempting to cause the effect. Right?

I might have to rethink the whole “line of acid” idea. here is the probable clincher: does a black dragon’s breath weapon cause splash damage? maybe i will make the Attack lines "---" and make this an SA only just for the sake of ease.

No, the dragon's does not. I guess it should either be a line of acid similar to a weapon, or a glob/spray/etc. of acid as a ranged touch attack. The former would be subject to a Reflex save, while the latter would be a ranged touch attack and allow all the feats and splash damage.

“The pools of acid evaporate in X rounds/hours.”- like so?

Cool.

Climb no good? I suggested Escape Artist (uncertainly) because it wriggles around like a worm, so who knows. Move Silently was a, what the hell who knows. Dungeoneering? Naw, it knows the Underdark like the back of its… slug.

How about_: Listen +12, Search +10, Survival +13 ?

Actually, Climb is fine...not sure why I skipped it. I like the others you mentioned.

I thought Epic Toughness was +20? Good idea, regardless. How about, then:
Feats: Blind-Fight, Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Skill Focus (Survival), Track
Epic Feats: Epic Toughness (x4)

Epic Toughness was raised to +30 in Complete Warrior, which states that it supercedes previous sources. Additionally, Andy Smith said that he intends to update the SRD to reflect this as well.

Your new feat block looks good.

 

[BOZ]

Slight revision brings us to this:

Reflexive Sunder (Ex): Striking a horgar's body is like hitting a granite boulder, and may destroy manufactured weapons. Any character that strikes a horgar with a slashing or piercing melee weapon must succeed on a DC 32 Reflex save or the weapon takes 3d8+12 points of damage. Weapons made of adamantine are not subject to this attack. The save DC is Constitution-based.

No, the dragon's does not. I guess it should either be a line of acid similar to a weapon, or a glob/spray/etc. of acid as a ranged touch attack. The former would be subject to a Reflex save, while the latter would be a ranged touch attack and allow all the feats and splash damage.

the ranged touch attack is what I’ve been pushing for all along. so, tell me how to modify this line to make it so, and include the effects for splash damage:

Acid Squirt (Ex): A horgar can fire a 20-foot line of acid once per round, that deals 20d4 points of acid damage.

Revising my Skills and Feats a bit:

Skills: Climb +16, Listen +11, Search +10, Survival +11 (+13 following tracks)
Feats: Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Point Blank Shot, Track, Weapon Focus (acid spray)
Epic Feats: Epic Toughness (x4)

And any thoughts on the acid-stench effects as above?

 

[Shade]

Slight revision brings us to this:

Reflexive Sunder (Ex): Striking a horgar's body is like hitting a granite boulder, and may destroy manufactured weapons. Any character that strikes a horgar with a slashing or piercing melee weapon must succeed on a DC 32 Reflex save or the weapon takes 3d8+12 points of damage. Weapons made of adamantine are not subject to this attack. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Nice work!

the ranged touch attack is what I’ve been pushing for all along.

See, give it time and people will come around to your way of thinking.

so, tell me how to modify this line to make it so, and include the effects for splash damage:

Acid Squirt (Ex): A horgar can fire a 20-foot line of acid once per round, that deals 20d4 points of acid damage.

Attack: melee attacks or acid squirt +X ranged touch (20d4 acid plus 5d4 acid splash)

Acid Squirt (Ex): A horgar can spit a stream of acid at an opponent or area. Treat this as a splash weapon. Thus, the horgar makes a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet and a maximum range of 20 feet. A direct hit deals 20d4 points of acid damage. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the acid hits takes 5d4 points of acid damage from the splash.

Revising my Skills and Feats a bit:

Skills: Climb +16, Listen +11, Search +10, Survival +11 (+13 following tracks)
Feats: Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Point Blank Shot, Track, Weapon Focus (acid spray)
Epic Feats: Epic Toughness (x4)

Excellent.

And any thoughts on the acid-stench effects as above?

Which post was that in again?