Converting monsters from First Edition modules

[Shade]

not bad, coupled with incorporeality.

Darkform (Ex): A presence's physical form seems to consist of a shadowy illumination that grants it concealment (20% miss chance). This effect is otherwise like the darkness spell.

Not bad at all.

Don't remember. If so, we need to make sure it grants both the ability to detect living creatures, as well as their alignments. I'm assuming this would exclude undead and constructs?

Agreed and yes.

well, the fact that a presence's control over a whisp cannot be blocked sounds like the opposite of a limitation to me.

Right. Gotcha.

well, as incorporeals, they have no Str score, so we can assume the Dex will cover that. what I meant by my question was that, it is obvious that the whisp was intended to have a low attack roll (Whisps attack on the "Under 1 HD" column) but the "treated as having more than one hit die for purposes of multiple fighter attacks" was confusing me. Was it something like, in 1E, that fighters did something like the modern Cleave feat to creatures that had low-HD? In other words, if whisps technically had 11+ HD, fighters in 1E could not attack one after the other?

But yes, although the original version gave whisps a low attack value on purpose, if you like I guess we can give them a better one now.

Oh yeah, duh on the no Str score.

I believe fighters got their second attack right off the bat in 1E/2E. Didn't it go 1 every 1, 3 every 2, then 2 every 2, and finally 3 every 3? Regardless, I think they should use the presence's BAB to be a challenge. I'm not sure about that last bit.

OK, here is a first attempt at a writeup for the whisps...

Whisps (Su): A presence can create whisps at will, using its own life force, which enable it to attack enemies. To create a whisp, a presence sacrifices four of its hit points. A presence can create as many whisps as it has Hit Dice as a standard action, and it cannot have more whisps than it has Hit Dice. A presence cannot convert all of its hit points into whisps. If the presence re-absorbs a whisp (as a free action), it regains all the hit points that the whisp had remaining.

A presence has total control over all its whisps, and its control over them cannot be blocked by any means. A whisp is fast-moving and mobile, and each one moves independently, and can move up to 50 feet away from the presence. A whisp can move and attack in the same round in which it is created.

A whisp has no independent will of its own, though each one is treated as a separate creature for combat purposes. (Whisps use the presence's base attack bonus, but use their own Dexterity modifier to determine their melee attack bonus with natural weapons.)


note that the whisp isn't going to have any skills. As for saving throws, I don't want to give it any higher saves than what it would get for HD.

You don't want to go with the "share saves" like the master/familiar? If not, these guys are toast to even the lowest-level area effect spells cast by a caster level of the presence's CR.

 

[BOZ]

Agreed and yes.

got anything for a sense life/alignment then? and, thinking, would the alignment sense work on undead and constructs?

I believe fighters got their second attack right off the bat in 1E/2E. Didn't it go 1 every 1, 3 every 2, then 2 every 2, and finally 3 every 3? Regardless, I think they should use the presence's BAB to be a challenge. I'm not sure about that last bit.

no no, what I meant was something like Cleave but not as good - I vaguely remember it. Something like if you were a fighter attacking small low-level enemies, you could make extra attacks - I think that's what they were getting at. Say, if you killed a kobold, you got a free attack on his buddy standing next to him.

You don't want to go with the "share saves" like the master/familiar? If not, these guys are toast to even the lowest-level area effect spells cast by a caster level of the presence's CR.

life is rough sometimes. I'm going to assume that a creature as intelligent as a presence would have them not grouped together, unless piling on an enemy. And as tiny creatures, don't they need to be in an opponent's space to hit anyway?

You like the writeup otherwise?

 

[Shade]

got anything for a sense life/alignment then? and, thinking, would the alignment sense work on undead and constructs?

I know we've done this before, but I can't seem to find it.

Anyhoo, here's a stab at it:

"Lifesense" (Su): A presence continually detects the presence of living creatures and their alignments within 60 feet. This functions similar to a detect undead spell, except that it detects only living creatures, as well as detect chaos/evil/good/law. This ability is always active.

I don't think it should work on constructs and undead, since the original text said "living creatures and their alignments".

no no, what I meant was something like Cleave but not as good - I vaguely remember it. Something like if you were a fighter attacking small low-level enemies, you could make extra attacks - I think that's what they were getting at. Say, if you killed a kobold, you got a free attack on his buddy standing next to him.

Oh, I remember what you were talking about now. I think it was called "sweep". I remember it from the old Gold Box computer games. Regardless, I don't think it applies anymore, since fighters now have to choose Cleave, Great Cleave, or Whirlwind Attack to achieve the same results.

life is rough sometimes. I'm going to assume that a creature as intelligent as a presence would have them not grouped together, unless piling on an enemy. And as tiny creatures, don't they need to be in an opponent's space to hit anyway?

You like the writeup otherwise?

Ouch, OK. Yes, they do have to be in an enemy's space, but as incorporeal creatures, probably won't draw an attack of opportunity most of the time. I guess they'll still avoid 50% of corporeal spells, anyway.

I do like the writeup, otherwise.

 

[BOZ]

I know we've done this before, but I can't seem to find it.

Anyhoo, here's a stab at it:

"Lifesense" (Su): A presence continually detects the presence of living creatures and their alignments within 60 feet. This functions similar to a detect undead spell, except that it detects only living creatures, as well as detect chaos/evil/good/law. This ability is always active.

I don't think it should work on constructs and undead, since the original text said "living creatures and their alignments".

I like where you're coming from, and I agree about the non-living creatures, but that is a bit disorganized. I think we can skip detecting chaos and law, since the presence doesn't seem interested in those. Let me retry it:

Lifesense (Su): A presence continually detects the presence of living creatures and their alignments within 60 feet. This functions similar to a detect undead spell, except that it detects living creatures instead of undead, and the presence is never stunned if a living creature has more than twice its Hit Dice. Additionally, this ability allows the presence to use detect evil and detect good automatically on any living creatures it detects. This ability is always active.

Oh, I remember what you were talking about now. I think it was called "sweep". I remember it from the old Gold Box computer games.

EXACTLY.

Regardless, I don't think it applies anymore, since fighters now have to choose Cleave, Great Cleave, or Whirlwind Attack to achieve the same results.

right. I wasn't suggesting we use it, I was just wondering if that was what they meant originally. Only a curiosity on my part.

Ouch, OK. Yes, they do have to be in an enemy's space, but as incorporeal creatures, probably won't draw an attack of opportunity most of the time. I guess they'll still avoid 50% of corporeal spells, anyway.

I do like the writeup, otherwise.

good deal.

posting in homebrews...

 

[Shade]

Nice lifesense revision.

"In general, a presence will create whisps in order to attack any creatures of non-evil alignment which it detects, retaining enough hit points to produce a number of whisps (usually a little under half its total capacity) to defend itself in case of absolute need."

Based on this quote, I'd argue that detect good isn't necessary, either. It just needs detect evil...if it ain't evil, it's fightin' time.

For stats, definitely high Wis and Cha. Any reason you suggested a low Dex?

 

[BOZ]

Based on this quote, I'd argue that detect good isn't necessary, either. It just needs detect evil...if it ain't evil, it's fightin' time.

clobberin time? and you’re right – it doesn’t hate good creatures, it hates non-evil creatures.

For stats, definitely high Wis and Cha. Any reason you suggested a low Dex?

low Dex, because to me the presence doesn’t seem like a particularly mobile creature. “These creatures seldom move” coupled with the very slow speed seem to support this viewpoint.

Wis 17-19? Cha 16-17?

Now here’s a question I’ve been wondering about… is damage reduction X/magic or silver still relevant to incorporeal creatures?

 

[Shade]

Gotcha. Dex 10, then?

Wis 19, Cha 17.

Well, DR/silver would still matter. Imagine a +1 silver longsword. Since magic weapons can hit incorporeal creatures, the /silver part would still reduce the damage, right?

The magic part is probably redundant, however. So if it is "magic or silver", it might as well not be there. If it is "magic and silver", I think we can just make it "silver".

I just checked the MM3...two of the incorporeal creatures have damage reduction, albeit alignment-based, for what it's worth.

 

[BOZ]

Well, DR/silver would still matter. Imagine a +1 silver longsword. Since magic weapons can hit incorporeal creatures, the /silver part would still reduce the damage, right?

The magic part is probably redundant, however. So if it is "magic or silver", it might as well not be there. If it is "magic and silver", I think we can just make it "silver".

I just checked the MM3...two of the incorporeal creatures have damage reduction, albeit alignment-based, for what it's worth.

Given all that, I'd say "good or silver" is a better way to go. 10 for the presence and 5 for the whisps, or 5 for both?

What do you think the Con score should be - high or low?

Updating in homebrews.

 

[Shade]

Good or silver...perfect! 10 for presence, 5 for whisps sounds good.

For Con, I'm thinking 12-14.

In Combat section, there's a typo: "snake-like, writing, green smoky clouds". It looks like it needs an "h", unless the whips like to demonstrate their penmanship.

For skills, are we assuming that the presence can use its Search, Spot, and Listen skills via the whisps? If so, I'd suggest the following ranks:

Escape Artist 14, Hide 14, Knowledge (arcana) 14, Listen 14, Search 14, Spot 14. (Its kind of limited in what skills it can use, since it usually just sits there pondering evil stuff.)

Suggested Feats: Alertness, Great Fortitutde, Iron Will, Stealthy.

Any land and underground sounds about right for Environment line.

 

[BOZ]

In Combat section, there's a typo: "snake-like, writing, green smoky clouds". It looks like it needs an "h", unless the whips like to demonstrate their penmanship.

typo! how dare you underestimate this thing's need for good writing skills!

For skills, are we assuming that the presence can use its Search, Spot, and Listen skills via the whisps?

good call! I think I'll add a note about that...

Its kind of limited in what skills it can use, since it usually just sits there pondering evil stuff.

true... but this is an intelligent creature, so some more Knowledge-based skills would be a good idea. Not sure how an incorporeal would benefit from Escape Artist though? For Hide, how big of a racial bonus to hide in shadows? We could diversify a bit with skills like Gather Information, Sense Motive, or Spellcraft.

do we keep this line? Without it, a whisp has a +6 incorporeal touch attack, but with this line, it has a +13 to hit.
"Whisps use the presence's base attack bonus, but use their own Dexterity modifier to determine their melee attack bonus with natural weapons."

Should we add anything to the whisp's description about mindlessness?