Converting monsters from the second edition Monstrous Compendiums

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i'll go with Str 10 as you suggested, and keep the Int a bit higher at 5. they go all the way up to 12, so no need to keep em towards the bottom.

as for the rest, how about...
Dex 18-22
Con 14-19 (keep in mind, the HD was "1+4" which suggests they should have more hp than average for a 1 HD creature)
Wis and Cha maybe 10?

also, i hadn't posted their picture yet, had i! :)
 

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Seems to me we need an updated stat block:

Whipsting
Small Aberration
Hit Dice: 1d8+4 (8 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 25 ft (5 squares), fly 30 feet (poor)
Armor Class: 16 (+1 size, +5 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: Bite +1 melee (1d3) and 2 tentacles/stingers +X melee (1d2 and poison)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft (X ft with tentacles)
Special Attacks: poison (jumping +4 to hit?), improved grab, constrict?
Special Qualities: darkvision 120 ft
Saves: Fort +4 Ref +5 Will +2
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 21, Con 18, Int 5, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skills: 4 (jump bonus, climb)
Feats: 1 (improved grapple, maybe weapon finesse and/or Multiattack?)
 


15’ reach indeed, but I’m still thinking about the feat. It’ll probably get one feat as bonus.

thom99 said:
Say didn't the gambado get redone recently? It has a spring/jump attack as well I think - might be worth checking it out.

the Tome of Horrors version does spring to attack, but there is no special ability written up for this. Same thing with the older Creature Catalog version.


For reference, here is the stirge’s attach attack, which I mentioned above:

Attach (Ex): If a stirge hits with a touch attack, it uses its eight pincers to latch onto the opponent’s body. An attached stirge is effectively grappling its prey. The stirge loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of 12, but holds on with great tenacity. Stirges have a +12 racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above).

An attached stirge can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached stirge through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the stirge.


breaking down some sections from Dragon #197:

“It is named for its lashing attack, in which it tries to drive an envenomed sting into an opponent. The strike of an attacking whipsting makes a loud, whiplike crack audible up to 70’ away.”

“A whipsting usually waits for prey with one tentacle curled underneath itself to form a natural spring. If facing a large foe, a whipsting often avoids attacking or seeks to flee altogether by using this curled tentacle to leap about in a constant bobbing or bouncing pattern, like a pogo stick. Otherwise, its initial attack consists of suddenly straightening this tentacle to propel itself from its ledge or fissure in a wild spring that ends in a lashing whip of the whipsting’s body, which drives its envenomed sting deep into the opponent ( +4 to hit).”

Flavor text? Or should the “spring attack” with a +4 bonus be some sort of Ex ability?

“The whipsting then tries to constrict, smother, or strangle prey by remaining attached to it, slapping with its tentacles to drive home its two stings. A whipsting’s sting strikes for 1 hp damage.”

And this would form the basis of the Attach or Improved Grab or whatnot? Or that could just be more flavor text.

“A strike also injects its venom into or onto its prey (the poison is effective both internally and by skin contact).”

“The prey must save versus poison at -2 to avoid the venom effects. If the save fails, the prey shudders uncontrollably on the round following the sting-strike. Nausea and weakness ruin all attacks and spellcasting attempted by the victim on that round, and cause the automatic dropping of all wielded or carried objects. Tasks requiring high manual dexterity, such as picking a lock or writing a message, are impossible. The victim also suffers a one-round armor-class penalty of 1. On subsequent rounds, the victim can move normally but is still weak; attacks are at a -3 penalty to attack and damage rolls initially, -2 on the round following,-1 on the next round, and normal thereafter. Each successful whipsting strike results in another round of shuddering (as described above) unless saved against. Every successful whipsting attack must be saved against even if the target creature has previously escaped venom effects by a successful saving throw.”

“Whipstings are themselves immune to the effects of all whipsting venom.”

And here is the poison. Sounds like some nausea, perhaps some Str and Dex damage as well. We can make this a non-standard sort of venom attack, or try to fit it into the standard sort of poison listing.

I see Ability Focus in there, but we are already loading this 1-HD monster up with feats. I’ll tell you one thing I saw quite a bit of (that I never really noticed before) while I was working on my project for XRP is racial bonuses to save DC’s. go ahead, they’re in there; check out the rust monster, monstrous spider, roper, and a few others I can’t recall at the moment. I think we should use that when we have something with a lower DC than we should expect.


Also, the text provides a variant:

“Stingwings: Approximately 10% of all encountered whipstings have gauzy, fragile wings that allow them to glide down from heights without damage or jump farther than wingless whipstings, up to 60’ horizontally. Such wings can be regenerated in 1-3 days if damaged. The wings cannot be targeted in combat, but a captured “stingwing” could have its wings cut off (wings have AC 10 and 1 hp), and they will automatically be destroyed by any sort of area-effect flame spell.”

Which I rewrote as:

About one tenth of all whipstings are called stingwings, and have a set of tiny, flimsy, transparent wings. These wings provide a stingwing with a fly speed of 30 feet per round (average maneuverability) and a +X racial bonus on Jump checks. These wings can be easily cut off with a slashing weapon if a stingwing is held down or helpless, and are automatically destroyed if a stingwing suffers any fire damage. Severing or destroying a stingwing’s wings does no damage to the creature. A stingwing fully regrows its wings in 1d3 days.
 

Hey Boz! Thanks for keeping this thread goin! ;)

Hmmm...with all these 'difficulties' I'm beginning to agree with Shade that the whipsting is a weird one! :p


Flavor text? Or should the “spring attack” with a +4 bonus be some sort of Ex ability?

I wouldn't mind the +4 bonus for the first (i.e. spring) attack.
And I definitely agree we need a lot of racial bonuses to avoid too many feats!

The whipsting then tries to constrict, smother, or strangle prey by remaining attached to it, slapping with its tentacles to drive home its two stings. A whipsting’s sting strikes for 1 hp damage.


I'm OK with this being flavor text, except for the 1 hp damage. And the variant verbiage sounds fine!

Thanks again for all the hard work Boz!

thom
 

BOZ said:
breaking down some sections from Dragon #197:

“It is named for its lashing attack, in which it tries to drive an envenomed sting into an opponent. The strike of an attacking whipsting makes a loud, whiplike crack audible up to 70’ away.”
Should this have any combat implications (the sound, that is)?

BOZ said:
“A whipsting usually waits for prey with one tentacle curled underneath itself to form a natural spring. If facing a large foe, a whipsting often avoids attacking or seeks to flee altogether by using this curled tentacle to leap about in a constant bobbing or bouncing pattern, like a pogo stick. Otherwise, its initial attack consists of suddenly straightening this tentacle to propel itself from its ledge or fissure in a wild spring that ends in a lashing whip of the whipsting’s body, which drives its envenomed sting deep into the opponent ( +4 to hit).”

Flavor text? Or should the “spring attack” with a +4 bonus be some sort of Ex ability?
Probably Ex ability.

BOZ said:
“The whipsting then tries to constrict, smother, or strangle prey by remaining attached to it, slapping with its tentacles to drive home its two stings. A whipsting’s sting strikes for 1 hp damage.”

And this would form the basis of the Attach or Improved Grab or whatnot? Or that could just be more flavor text.
Basis.

BOZ said:
“A strike also injects its venom into or onto its prey (the poison is effective both internally and by skin contact).”

“The prey must save versus poison at -2 to avoid the venom effects. If the save fails, the prey shudders uncontrollably on the round following the sting-strike. Nausea and weakness ruin all attacks and spellcasting attempted by the victim on that round, and cause the automatic dropping of all wielded or carried objects. Tasks requiring high manual dexterity, such as picking a lock or writing a message, are impossible. The victim also suffers a one-round armor-class penalty of 1. On subsequent rounds, the victim can move normally but is still weak; attacks are at a -3 penalty to attack and damage rolls initially, -2 on the round following,-1 on the next round, and normal thereafter. Each successful whipsting strike results in another round of shuddering (as described above) unless saved against. Every successful whipsting attack must be saved against even if the target creature has previously escaped venom effects by a successful saving throw.”

“Whipstings are themselves immune to the effects of all whipsting venom.”

And here is the poison. Sounds like some nausea, perhaps some Str and Dex damage as well. We can make this a non-standard sort of venom attack, or try to fit it into the standard sort of poison listing.

I see Ability Focus in there, but we are already loading this 1-HD monster up with feats. I’ll tell you one thing I saw quite a bit of (that I never really noticed before) while I was working on my project for XRP is racial bonuses to save DC’s. go ahead, they’re in there; check out the rust monster, monstrous spider, roper, and a few others I can’t recall at the moment. I think we should use that when we have something with a lower DC than we should expect.
I'd simplify it to nausea, Str and Dex damage. The rest seems to fall into a reduction of Str and Dex. I like the racial bonus to save DC better than Ability Focus, as this weak little critter shouldn't have too many feats.

BOZ said:
Also, the text provides a variant:

“Stingwings: Approximately 10% of all encountered whipstings have gauzy, fragile wings that allow them to glide down from heights without damage or jump farther than wingless whipstings, up to 60’ horizontally. Such wings can be regenerated in 1-3 days if damaged. The wings cannot be targeted in combat, but a captured “stingwing” could have its wings cut off (wings have AC 10 and 1 hp), and they will automatically be destroyed by any sort of area-effect flame spell.”

Which I rewrote as:

About one tenth of all whipstings are called stingwings, and have a set of tiny, flimsy, transparent wings. These wings provide a stingwing with a fly speed of 30 feet per round (average maneuverability) and a +X racial bonus on Jump checks. These wings can be easily cut off with a slashing weapon if a stingwing is held down or helpless, and are automatically destroyed if a stingwing suffers any fire damage. Severing or destroying a stingwing’s wings does no damage to the creature. A stingwing fully regrows its wings in 1d3 days.
Good rewrite!
 

thom99 said:
Hey Boz! Thanks for keeping this thread goin! ;)

Hmmm...with all these 'difficulties' I'm beginning to agree with Shade that the whipsting is a weird one! :p

weird, well yes it is. But difficulties were meant to be overcome! :)

thom99 said:
I wouldn't mind the +4 bonus for the first (i.e. spring) attack.
And I definitely agree we need a lot of racial bonuses to avoid too many feats!

I don’t know about a lot… we’ll do what needs doing though. :D

Let me give this a try:

“Spring” Attack (Ex): When a whipsting jumps at an opponent from a coiled position, it gains a +4 circumstance bonus to its attack roll for the first round of combat.

Should we make use of this somehow? AC dodge bonus? Add it to the spring action above?

“If facing a large foe, a whipsting often avoids attacking or seeks to flee altogether by using this curled tentacle to leap about in a constant bobbing or bouncing pattern, like a pogo stick.”

Shade said:
Should this have any combat implications (the sound, that is)?

no, I don’t think so. Other than everyone in the area can hear it. The text doesn’t say anything about deafening opponents.

Shade said:

OK… :D so does attach make more sense, or improved grab? Or should we write up some sort of hybrid ability?

Shade said:
I'd simplify it to nausea, Str and Dex damage. The rest seems to fall into a reduction of Str and Dex. I like the racial bonus to save DC better than Ability Focus, as this weak little critter shouldn't have too many feats.

cool. I’m thinking this will have to be written up as a “Venom (Ex)” sort of ability rather than a standard poison. More on this later.
 

And here’s what I came up with. You know I don’t like to deviate too far from the original text, but let’s face it – there’s no easy way I could have written that up. ;)

Venom (Ex): A whipsting’s stinger injects the creature’s venom into its prey. This venom is also effective through skin contact. A victim must make a successful DC X Fortitude save or take 1d4 points of Strength damage and 1d6 points of Dexterity damage, and be nauseated for 1d3 rounds. The save is Constitution-based and includes a +X racial bonus. A whipsting is immune to the effects of all whipsting venom.

Also, here is the attach attack, reworked a bit to accommodate the whipsting (this will probably require some work):

Attach (Ex): If a whipsting hits with a tentacle attack, it latches onto the opponent’s body and drives its envenomed stinger deep into the opponent. This deals 1 point of damage per tentacle, and injects the whipsting’s venom into the opponent. A whipsting may continue to make tentacle attacks each round that it remains attached. An attached whipsting is effectively grappling its prey. The whipsting loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of X, but holds on with great tenacity. Whipstings have a +X racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above).

An attached whipsting can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached whipsting through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the whipsting.
 

Although it would seem obvious, should we mention that creatures immune to poison are immune to the effects of the venom?
 

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